What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

I don’t know why all the mystery about my political leanings, just ask me rather than speculate. Of course I’m a fully fledged socialist, I don’t hide my politics, I couldn’t care less what you random strangers on the internet think. As for calling out anti semetism, suit yourself, you are a random stranger. The Jewish bloc who I marched with last week in London were perfectly happy to walk with me. Gosh some of them even went for a drink with me afterwards !

One thing is for sure, the UK wouldn’t be standing with Israel and the genocide if Corbyn had got in, he would have done the right thing and called for a ceasefire.

Thar would leave the US and Israel all on their own in the world.

I recommend the David Baddiel book already mentioned which demonstrates the enormous blindspot towards antisemitism that runs through the political spectrum and wider society. And yes, there is a particular problem on the left. I am as horrified by support for Hamas as I am by what is now unfolding in Gaza. I truly think that those expressing admiration for Hamas either haven’t informed themselves of the details of 7 Oct or have something very wrong with them.

" I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism,"

How do you feel about Netanyahu?

@Gnomegarden32 " I am as horrified by support for Hamas as I am by what is now unfolding in Gaza. I truly think that those expressing admiration for Hamas either haven’t informed themselves of the details of 7 Oct or have something very wrong with them."

Who is supporting Hamas? Who admires Hamas? Can you name some names?

Ok so the issue is that you actually don't understand Zionism.

In Zionism Israel in its entirety must be a Jewish state with no room for the Palestinians to have any of it. That's why Gaza has been kept to a small strip with Israel still controlling their utilities.

Israel agreed to a two state solution in 2007 when Olmert was PM. He famously supported a two state solution for peace.

Netanyahu is vehemently against the two state solution.

I thought you said you had studied international politics at a top institution.

What the actual fuck
That's antisemitism right there, you cannot go round saying things like that under the guise of "this group of people think this unacceptably racist thing...."

@CurlewKate I didn’t mean on this thread, I meant more widely - the support for Hamas that has shown up on marches etc

Why might antisemitism be a problem in the left?

The hard left see themselves as the champions of the oppressed. They are also anti-West. It's why when Russia invaded Ukraine, they blamed NATO instead of Russia, because Russia are anti-West so are oppressed not oppressors.

Israel is 'the West' therefore the oppressors even if it was founded on the back of the Holocaust (it's why Holocaust denial is so popular, because of the cognitive dissonance caused by believing that the oppressors could ever be victims)

And the hard left are anti-racist because obviously they are against discrimination against oppressed minorities. But racism against Jews takes a different form, where the tropes are that Jews are all-powerful and secretly running the world - the ultimate oppressors!

You can see a lot of the tropes against Jews being transferred to Israel - controlling the media, controlling politics in other countries etc etc. Then you get Zionist being used as a code-word for Jew (even Corbyn admitted this is something antisemites do).

The inability to see oppressors as victims is now coming out in 7th October denial - Hamas didn't rape anyone, most deaths were caused by the IDF etc etc.

Basically, it's a world view that splits groups into goodies and baddies based on how "oppressed" they are by the West and then forces narratives along that line.

I have a question. Why was the hard right so keen to stand up against anti-semitism when they usually vilify anybody who is different? It doesn’t fit with their values.

Because they hate Muslims more than they hate Jews, and it’s a way to get at Muslims.

I'd like to know this too. Its very noticeable (to me) that the right wing seem completely happy to align themselves with Netanyahu and refuse to condemn his governments treatment of Gazans.

To be honest I am starting to assume its part of a bigger plan to amplify differences between left and right ahead of elections in both US and UK next year. Its know Russia and China use misinformation online with the aim of political destabilisation and weakening their opponents.

Research finds bots are far more likely to promote right wing content.

https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2020/10/twitter-bots-promote-right-wing-conspiracies-paper-shows/169677/

The Chinese amplified pro-Kremlin/anti-Nato messages after Russia invaded Ukraine using online "influencers"

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-investing-disinformation-surveillance-censorship-new-report/

We need to all be on our guard about the motivations of those making sweeping generalisations about whole groups of people as its possible they have a broader agenda than it might seem on the surface.

@@CurlewKate I didn’t mean on this thread, I meant more widely - the support for Hamas that has shown up on marches etc"

I didn't mean on this thread either. I meant in public life. In politics. In celebrity culture. Obviously Hamas supporters on marches should be arrested.

Sorry- that post was for @Gnomegarden32

Because they like playing Oppression Olympics and love imagining themselves saving the winners.

It is just a good excuse for them to try and bash another group they hate. They think it allows them to look like the good guys for once or something. As they don't normally tend to think of Jewish people as white or worth protecting in any way. Plus a lot are open or closet neo nazis it does begger belief that they think anyone will fool for this sudden change of heart regarding Jewish people.

The Jewish community quite rightly keep telling them to sod off and not to attend events etc. The English Defence League leader was quite rightly arrested by the police for ignoring both their own and the British Jewish Leaders warning not to attend the antisemitism march.

In politics or with celebrities you don't get outright examples in the UK and a lot of other countries because Hamas is a prescribed terrorist group here so it is illegal to show support

However people that call them a resistance group or take about events like the pogrom being resistance are basically saying how they view the group. This to most people is showing support for Hamas.

If you want more obvious examples regarding the general public or Piers Cobyn actually, I posted a few on the Do people support Hamas thread that are not in doubt. On the original Antisemiic signs at marches thread and the old call them out thread from the beginning of this recent conflict there are lots of signs, videos and links of people very openly supporting Hamas. Literally signs saying I support Hamas or NHS doctors praising the pogrom and saying how exciting they are at what happened. Very sick individuals indeed. Since the first couple of weeks the police and the government have made if very clear people that outwardly praise or support Hamas will get arrested. Therefore we now have supporters being even more careful with their words. This does not however mean they have changed their opinions or support of a terrorist group

History didn’t start in 1948. While millions of Jews were displaced for centuries, Jews have lived continuously on the Levant for thousands of years. Jews were an independent people who were colonised first by Europeans, then the Ottomans, then the Europeans again. We became an oppressed minority in our own homeland for centuries.

Israel also didn’t start the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. It’s anachronistic to even think they might have. The odds of them winning were very small, they were the underdog. Israel accepted the offer by the UN (even though it was for less land per person than Palestine). Palestine rejected the deal, the Arab League (including Palestine) started an invasion, then they lost the war that they started, and the victor exacted a price, that is the way all wars go. “Nakba” is a propaganda term for the same thing that happens in every war over land, someone wins it and someone loses it. Serbia is not happy with how much land they ended up with after losing the war, there are countless other examples. To the victor go the spoils, so don’t start wars is the lesson there.

After that same war, Jordan annexed part of Palestine, which people have either conveniently forgotten or miraculously recovered from.

To put it in perspective, 60 million people worldwide were displaced in the 40s - you hear very few requests for land returns from elsewhere, most refugees built lives in their new homes and the next few generations born there consider themselves home. The Palestinian Authorities chose to spend the next 70-odd years in a state of perpetual war, they chose to reject every peace deal, when they could have chosen the same option as all other people displaced at the same time, they could have focused on building Palestine into a functioning state.

Europeans have centuries-old antisemitic tropes to draw on. In the eyes of the left, Jews are supposed to be victims not victors. Much of the world sees us as inferior still. That’s why the narrative has been so successful: the world thinks military defeat by the Jews is the ultimate humiliation from which a people can never recover, because it still sees Jews as so inferior.

But do you not think it’s telling that by comparison people were so unmoved by the images and stories of what happened on October 7th, that they actually think Israel letting it slide and letting it happen over & over again is the lesser evil?

Is it an American university? Because no-one who was engaged in politics in the UK and on MN would be asking the questions you're asking or implying no-one engaged with foreign affairs until now. However the US approach in international development education and in the field is distinctly different from the UK one. Likewise how they characterise 'the left' and 'the right'.
No-one on the left is justifying terrorism. No-one calling for a ceasefire is justifying terrorism (because again this isn't a left or right wing issue - it's a humanitarian one).
Some people are creating strawmen in the hope it distracts from a litany of war crimes. And some people are claiming to support Israel whilst saying a ceasefire only impacts them. That simplistic approach is frankly shocking from someone claiming the experience you are claiming.

@Livinginanotherworld the US and the UK are not the only countries supporting Israel -
many countries including the EU have given their support for Israel’s right to defend itself.

No-one on the left is justifying terrorism.

This isn’t true. There have been loads of posts on here about how October 7th was a resistance or freedom fighters or an understandable reaction to how Israel has treated Palestinians.

My general rule of thumb on this with politians or celebrates is that if you didn't react or call out the massacre on the 7th October or in the few days following it I don't want ti hear your views now.

The general public and Labour supporters as a whole are not antisemitic. It is a lot of very far left politicians and their supporters that is the lefts problem. They can't say anything supportive about Israel or the pogrom without a but or whatabout. Israel is the size of Wales with a population the size of London (9 million Jewish & Arabs) this obsession the very left has had with the state for many years is out of proportion. Many other countries have more issues & civilian deaths because of those issues. So you have to ask yourself why the obsession for years with a tiny little state in the middle east.

Respected historians, both Israeli, Palestinian and onlookers, will disagree with you on all of this. It was a brutal land grab and Palestinians paid the price for Europe's anti semitism and guilt and me and you arguing over it will not change anything.

Nakba is a propaganda term - its like saying holocaust is a propaganda term and is deeply offensive.

You mention Palestinians staying in perpetual war but ignore the facts of Israels ongoing brutality across the west bank and Gaza - the murder, imprisonment, land grab, apartheid system.

Please do some wider reading and look at a variety of news sources.