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Conflict in the Middle East

Conflict Israel and other nearby countries

483 replies

EasterIssland · 09/12/2023 22:26

Israel is at war with Gaza. However , this has dragged other countries in the area as well.
weve heard about the problems in West Bank (there is a thread) but also Lebanon where civilians have been killed and journalists have been targeted and killed

they’ve also attacked several airports in Siria.

ive read in the past there was a conflict as well with Yemen and read now this” Yemen's Houthis warn they will target all ships headed to Israel”

it doesn’t sound that post this war living in Israel is going to be safer than before

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/yemens-houthis-say-they-will-target-ships-red-sea-en-route-israel-2023-12-09/

Houthi military helicopter flies over the Galaxy Leader cargo ship in the Red Sea in this photo released November 20, 2023. Houthi Military Media/Handout via REUTERS/File Photo

Yemen's Houthis warn they will target all ships headed to Israel

Yemen's Houthi movement said on Saturday they would target all ships heading to Israel, regardless of their nationality, and warned all international shipping companies against dealing with Israeli ports.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/yemens-houthis-say-they-will-target-ships-red-sea-en-route-israel-2023-12-09/

OP posts:
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67
SharonEllis · 14/12/2023 06:14

Parkingt111 · 13/12/2023 23:05

@stomachameleon I don't know much about him tbh. When the war started I would never have thought it would still be ongoing after all this time. I honestly thought Hamas would be defeated by now. Maybe I under estimated them or then over estimated the IDF.
Either way I just wish it would all end.

Thats interesting because there have been lots and lots of articles by military analysts from the start - try Lawrence Freedman, Shashank Joshi & others about the great difficulty of defeating Hamas quickly because of them holding hostages, their use of human shields and the use of tunnels. IDF of course could have done it quicker if they had actually done what they have been accused of and just obliterated everything.

Thereissomelight · 14/12/2023 07:26

You seriously think the IDF has been careful not to harm human shields and that’s the reason the can’t “defeat” Hamas? Pull the other one

LonelyandsadChristmas · 14/12/2023 07:39

stomachameleon · 13/12/2023 23:11

I thought this was interesting... if it works! www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/x109uFfPLF

It's a visual on the surrounding countries.

It did work and I'm not a reddit user.

The massive decline in Jewish people from all the Arab countries shown is ethnic cleansing. The movement of Jewish people from unfriendly countries.

Parkingt111 · 14/12/2023 08:01

@SharonEllis I would have thought a better strategy would have been to go after the people at the top than try and defeat all

According to IDF figures they have killed approx 7000 which means there are still atleast 20 thousand remaining

The amount of infrastructure that has been destroyed aswell as civilian deaths when a third haven't even been killed is crazy. Have you seen any of the aerial images of areas in Gaza from before and after? Even if the war ended today I don't know where many civilians would live. So much has been destroyed

And now winter has come and disease is spreading. It is a catastrophe

stomachameleon · 14/12/2023 10:00

@Parkingt111 I think they are after the top.
Qatar have warned Hamas leadership to move to Algeria to get out of the reach of Mossad. I hope very much they take this route on both fronts.

Noicant · 14/12/2023 15:44

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/12/opinion/israel-gaza-saudi-arabia.html

I thought this was a really interesting piece about the view from the gulf.

Noicant · 14/12/2023 15:46

SharonEllis · 14/12/2023 06:14

Thats interesting because there have been lots and lots of articles by military analysts from the start - try Lawrence Freedman, Shashank Joshi & others about the great difficulty of defeating Hamas quickly because of them holding hostages, their use of human shields and the use of tunnels. IDF of course could have done it quicker if they had actually done what they have been accused of and just obliterated everything.

Tbh they have moved faster than I thought they would.

stomachameleon · 14/12/2023 16:38

@Noicant that article was interesting and good to see normalising relations is still on the table.

FOJN · 14/12/2023 18:30

SharonEllis · 14/12/2023 06:14

Thats interesting because there have been lots and lots of articles by military analysts from the start - try Lawrence Freedman, Shashank Joshi & others about the great difficulty of defeating Hamas quickly because of them holding hostages, their use of human shields and the use of tunnels. IDF of course could have done it quicker if they had actually done what they have been accused of and just obliterated everything.

You've signposted people to an academic and the defense editor at The Economist, both very accomplished but neither have fought in a war. The consistent themes of the various rent an opinion and military experts and analysts (all of whom have seen multiple tours of duty in active combat zones) who have contributed to podcasts and YouTube interviews I have listened to is that the IDF will struggle to eradicate Hamas because:

  1. The IDF bombed Gaza to smithereens before the ground invasion, this always make life harder for the offensive force. There are plenty of examples of this from the 20th century.
  2. The IDF is a largely inexperienced, reservist force whose main tasks have been patrolling the West Bank, manning check points, shooting and beating unarmed civilians and monitoring the Gaza border rather than active combat against a trained force.
  3. The tunnels make it easier for Hamas to pop up from under ground, attack and disappear again. This is how they have destroyed so many Israeli tanks.
  4. Hamas know Gaza.
  5. You cannot bomb an ideology into oblivion.

The hostages are not a concern for Israel because of the Hannibal directive, this is evidenced by their bombing without concern for where hostages might be, 50 are reported to have been killed by Israeli airstrikes. Also evidenced by the tank shelling at one of the Kibbutzim on 7th October which killed at least a dozen hostages.

The Israeli government is lying about the number of IDF casualties. The number of reported deaths seems accurate but a report today claims the data shows that 20% of those deaths are caused by "friendly fire" which is hardly surprising when you think about the stress a bunch of 20 year olds, with no combat experience, must be experiencing in Gaza. The number of injured IDF soldiers was reported as 5000 for a brief time but was the amended to 2000. Haaretz investigated and found that the rate of hospital admissions supports the original 5000 figure and that 2000 was probably a more accurate number for the soldiers left permanently disabled. That's 2000 young men and women left permanently disabled after a little more than a month of fighting.

The 2009 Amnesty International Report: 22 Days of Death and Destruction found evidence that the IDF use Palestinians as human shields but little to corroborate claims that Hamas do, although it keeps being repeated, as they say every accusation is a confession.

I have no doubt that Israel would obliterate Gaza if they felt confident they could take on Turkey, Egypt, Lebanon and Iran at the same time and win but it seems here, at least, they are more realistic about their capabilities.

SharonEllis · 14/12/2023 19:45

FOJN · 14/12/2023 18:30

You've signposted people to an academic and the defense editor at The Economist, both very accomplished but neither have fought in a war. The consistent themes of the various rent an opinion and military experts and analysts (all of whom have seen multiple tours of duty in active combat zones) who have contributed to podcasts and YouTube interviews I have listened to is that the IDF will struggle to eradicate Hamas because:

  1. The IDF bombed Gaza to smithereens before the ground invasion, this always make life harder for the offensive force. There are plenty of examples of this from the 20th century.
  2. The IDF is a largely inexperienced, reservist force whose main tasks have been patrolling the West Bank, manning check points, shooting and beating unarmed civilians and monitoring the Gaza border rather than active combat against a trained force.
  3. The tunnels make it easier for Hamas to pop up from under ground, attack and disappear again. This is how they have destroyed so many Israeli tanks.
  4. Hamas know Gaza.
  5. You cannot bomb an ideology into oblivion.

The hostages are not a concern for Israel because of the Hannibal directive, this is evidenced by their bombing without concern for where hostages might be, 50 are reported to have been killed by Israeli airstrikes. Also evidenced by the tank shelling at one of the Kibbutzim on 7th October which killed at least a dozen hostages.

The Israeli government is lying about the number of IDF casualties. The number of reported deaths seems accurate but a report today claims the data shows that 20% of those deaths are caused by "friendly fire" which is hardly surprising when you think about the stress a bunch of 20 year olds, with no combat experience, must be experiencing in Gaza. The number of injured IDF soldiers was reported as 5000 for a brief time but was the amended to 2000. Haaretz investigated and found that the rate of hospital admissions supports the original 5000 figure and that 2000 was probably a more accurate number for the soldiers left permanently disabled. That's 2000 young men and women left permanently disabled after a little more than a month of fighting.

The 2009 Amnesty International Report: 22 Days of Death and Destruction found evidence that the IDF use Palestinians as human shields but little to corroborate claims that Hamas do, although it keeps being repeated, as they say every accusation is a confession.

I have no doubt that Israel would obliterate Gaza if they felt confident they could take on Turkey, Egypt, Lebanon and Iran at the same time and win but it seems here, at least, they are more realistic about their capabilities.

'You've signposted people to an academic and the defense editor at The Economist, both very accomplished but neither have fought in a war.'

I take it you have extensive experience of combat, military strategy & defeating terrorist organisations? Jolly good, I expect you're just waitimg for the call.

Xenia · 14/12/2023 19:49

Israel ahd no choie but to defend itself. It is safer because it fought back. The Uk would similarly fight back. The US fought back after 9/11. This is what democracies do when their values and survival are threatened. It is why the Uk has nuclear weapons, an army etc. War is awful but there is sometimes no choice.

FOJN · 14/12/2023 20:22

SharonEllis · 14/12/2023 19:45

'You've signposted people to an academic and the defense editor at The Economist, both very accomplished but neither have fought in a war.'

I take it you have extensive experience of combat, military strategy & defeating terrorist organisations? Jolly good, I expect you're just waitimg for the call.

I can't see where I made such a claim so your response is rather strange.

mondriansdog · 14/12/2023 20:23

Xenia · 14/12/2023 19:49

Israel ahd no choie but to defend itself. It is safer because it fought back. The Uk would similarly fight back. The US fought back after 9/11. This is what democracies do when their values and survival are threatened. It is why the Uk has nuclear weapons, an army etc. War is awful but there is sometimes no choice.

Israel is not a democracy. It is an apartheid state.

Parkingt111 · 14/12/2023 20:26

@Xenia the people who direct these wars all have choices on how they go about doing it. I don't agree that they don't have a choice.
The only ones who don't seem to have a choice are the innocent civilians on both sides that are suffering

SharonEllis · 14/12/2023 21:55

FOJN · 14/12/2023 20:22

I can't see where I made such a claim so your response is rather strange.

Not at all. You dismissed experienced & highly regarded experts on the grounds that they haven't fought a war, so we can only assume that if we are expected to listen to you, you must have the relevant experience.

Sussurations · 15/12/2023 08:49

Of course Israel is a democracy! It’s the only democracy in the Middle East.

MissyB1 · 15/12/2023 09:52

Sussurations · 15/12/2023 08:49

Of course Israel is a democracy! It’s the only democracy in the Middle East.

Entirely depends on your definition of “democracy”.

Sussurations · 15/12/2023 10:15

What definition of democracy are you using then?

mondriansdog · 15/12/2023 10:16

Apartheid, oppressive states are not democratic.

Sussurations · 15/12/2023 10:52

What’s your definition of the word democracy?

Sussurations · 15/12/2023 12:23

I’m not sure the dictionary link was helpful thanks, I do already know what the word ‘democracy’ means. I also know, obviously, that some people think Israel isn’t a democracy.

I was asking how you and MissyB1 define ‘democracy’.

mondriansdog · 15/12/2023 12:29

If the definition of democracy isn't definitive enough for you in explaining how I define democracy, I can't help.

Palestinians are clearly are not living in a democracy if you go by that definition. In any society whereby half the people don't have freedom and human rights you can't realistically call it a democracy.

How do you define democracy?

Sussurations · 15/12/2023 12:43

Palestinians living in Israel have the right to vote. People in Gaza can’t, because Hamas don’t hold elections there and haven’t since 2006.

Thereissomelight · 15/12/2023 14:08

@mondriansdog
You’re more patient than I am.
I agree that the term “democracy” is being very loosely applied in this context.

And the words “civilised” and “moral” which I also hear thrown about a lot are being entirely misapplied.