Conflict Israel and other nearby countries

[EasterIssland]

Israel is at war with Gaza. However , this has dragged other countries in the area as well.
weve heard about the problems in West Bank (there is a thread) but also Lebanon where civilians have been killed and journalists have been targeted and killed

they’ve also attacked several airports in Siria.

ive read in the past there was a conflict as well with Yemen and read now this” Yemen's Houthis warn they will target all ships headed to Israel”

it doesn’t sound that post this war living in Israel is going to be safer than before

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/yemens-houthis-say-they-will-target-ships-red-sea-en-route-israel-2023-12-09/

You said 'There have been no elections in Gaza for a very long time. This certainly has an effect on my opinion of Israel...' The implication of that following your statements about America and Britain was that the lack of elections in Gaza was Israel's responsibility as you don't say that Hamas's failure to hold elections in Gaza makes you think less of them. I'm not sure how else we were supposed to read your statement?

I certainly did not say that the lack of elections in Gaza was the fault of the palestinian population. Its clearly the fault of Hamas who are in charge. The lack of agency of ordinary palestinians is the result of being run by a murderous dictatorship that punishes dissent, including 'executions' of people they consider collaborators & think nothing of killing their own people in failed rocket attacks on Israel. I think it would be good if palestinians recovered their agency & overthrew Hamas but that must be difficult and there are indications that Hamas still have quite widespread support. Without proper free & fair elections its quite hard to know.There appears to be some resistance at the moment. Palestinians are certainly trapped in a terrible situation.

Interesting, but not the answer to my question.

Some posters may not know that Israel’s electoral system is sometimes used as an example of the problems proportional representation can throw up. A quick Google gave me this April article from Canada https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/opinion/article-is-israels-democratic-crisis-proof-that-proportional-representation/

It’s interesting that in the first paragraph the author mentions attacks on the Israeli border and fears about weakened security due to the internal problems.

In recent days, Israelis have been shaken up by terror attacks and missile strikes from Gaza, Syria and Lebanon

Yes Israels PR system has long been held up as a factor in its political instability. Too much democracy is not always a good thing! Ironically it encourages fracturing the debate rather than encouraging unified national purpose which is what you need when faced with a constant existential crisis. The article is also a reminder to those who dont really follow this subject that terror attacks and missile strikes have been a longstanding issue for Israel.

That is true. I guess my response is, I wouldn’t have started here, as Israel was in trouble from the minute Netenyahu formed his coalition government, hence my comments about Trump and Johnson - what a disaster if such people are in power when something like this happens.

As there are currently extremists in control of both Israel and Gaza, this is a problem with global ramifications in which no country can take any moral high ground while so many people are being blown up. It might just be, given the unfortunate leadership situation in Israel, that truly getting rid of Hamas is not now even possible, because Israel cannot afford for the entire world to turn against it, and the world doesn’t trust anything that Netenyahu says or does. We need to hear something from Israel that indicates what it thinks it is really achieving and what it really plans to do next.

You are quoting selectively in order to misinterpret. Israel has free and fair elections, so has recently chosen its extremists. Palestinians have not recently had any agency over their leadership, yet the rhetoric and actions of Israel’s leadership demonstrate a general opinion that there is little real difference between Hamas and the Palestinian population in general and little concern about the fact so much “collateral damage” is the young and vulnerable. Even if Hamas were helping get civilians to safety, there would be an appalling level of death as a result of Israeli bombing. It is just not proportionate that tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians should be mutilated or killed because a far smaller number of Israelis were murdered, raped and tortured. However appalling the attacks on Israel, the retribution is now worse and is not keeping Israel safe from future atrocities, imvho.

Another way of putting it is, you do not get rid of extremists by behaving in similar ways to them.

Calling me ignorant. Im not replying to such provocation but its very hard.

Page 2 of this thread and already detailed. Not sure what most of the comments have to do with Israel and the relation with the neighbouring countries to be honest.

@ssd why is it provocative? You made a statement that several people take issue with?

Being called ignorant is deliberately provocative. I'm not biting.

I agree that it is a tragedy for Israel that Netanyahu was in charge at this point. I think it highly likely that Iran and Hamas chose this moment rather deliberately because Netanyahu has been focussed on his own political survival. Various people have argued that Israeli politicians had taken their eye off the ball and that this allowed the security breach on 7 October. Mary Ann Seighart has argued that women in the IDF warned this was going to happen and were ignored. Others have argued that Iran was concerned that other Arab states, notably the Saudis were normalising relations with Israel too much and so they were keen to destabilise.

All this is very relevant to the OP.

But its no good saying' I wouldn't have started here'. Israel is here. Its citizens have been murdered and kidnapped and the people who did it have made it clear they will do it again and again.

But my point is, as we have started here, Israel has stymied itself and I don’t believe it can bomb its way out of the situation, it is making the situation worse every day. The more it bombs, the more enemies it creates who are determined never to even try to live in peace with Israel, and the more it looks like the other side of the same coin as its enemy, apparently intent on wiping the enemy off the face of the earth, or at least off the disputed areas of land.

• with the impression being, under Netenyahu, that the enemy is seen as Palestinians, not just Hamas, as Israel under Netenyahu can’t seem to distinguish between the two, or it is impossible to when your approach is to bomb the lot of them.

That is not their approach though. That is just dishonest.

It’s not dishonest, it is my opinion, based on Netenyahu’s behaviour towards illegal settlers and settlement in the West Bank, his long term opposition to a two state solution and the fact he is as corrupt as hell, so why on earth should I trust anything Israel says while he and his coalition are at the helm? What evidence is there that he is any more trustworthy than Hamas?

Even Biden has said the bombing is “indiscriminate” and insufficient care is being made to protect civilians. Am I supposed to believe someone like Netenyahu is doing anything but pay lip service?

I think he's corrupt and very wrong on many things certainly. But the idea that he is equivalent to the leadership of Hamas, a genocidal terrorist organisation, is beyond ridiculous.

I disagree. You can’t kill tens of thousands of civilians and say any comparisons with extremists are ridiculous.

You also can’t encourage Israeli settlement in the West Bank and claim you are behaving legitimately.

You've mixed me up with someone else. I dont think I've mentioned the West Bank. I happen to believe the West Bank settlements are illegitimate and a block to peace.

Basically, I distrust what Israel is saying an awful lot more than I would if its leader were less corrupt, less encouraging of illegal settlement and less generally awful

I have to agree Israel’s government is a liability. Their intolerant arrogant behaviour is not doing their cause any favours.

And I distrust anyone who thinks the lack of elections in Gaza and the high young population is Israel's fault as it shows lack of basic research & knowledge

To be fair the Israeli government were quite supportive of Hamas as they were pleased they had pushed the Palestinian Authority aside.

@SharonEllis it's laughable that they would be compared regardless of anyone's thoughts on him.

I think he's corrupt and very wrong on many things certainly. But the idea that he is equivalent to the leadership of Hamas, a genocidal terrorist organisation, is beyond ridiculous

Is it though? I’m not saying Israel itself is comparable to Hamas but Netenyahu himself is not much better. And the sad thing is.. he’s in charge. More due to corruption than popularity perhaps.

Utterly ludicrous.