Horrors of violence towards women on October the 7th suppressed

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67613153

It looks like the UN may have been reluctant to investigate or highlight the sickening sexual violence committed on October 7th. It also appears some of the hostages may have been abused.

Was this because the horrendous violence doesn't fit in with that purely Palestinians are victims of this ongoing conflict? Are investigations into these crimes because women are viewed as second class citizens or the revelations 'muddy the waters' where some just want to see one side as the victim.

I can imagine people on this thread are just talking about the Horrors of violence towards women on October the 7th suppressed because that is the name of the thread

Whereas there are lots of other threads on mumsnet or social media and news outlets talking about what is happening to the civilians in Gaza or Israeli government actions

That is my guess anyway

On a thread about the Horrors of violence towards women on October the 7th suppressed?

Probably not the best place to question this. The matter is only just getting proper attention from the UN and organisation etc. Therefore it isn't necessary the right place or time to ask that question. However you may get a better response / answer else where

I'm glad the UN is investigating. Israel should cooperate fully.

Not surprised at all

Considering everything I am not sure Israel bothering to let the UN near the victim, bodies and any evidence makes a difference.

International people that want to believe Israel will do and those that don't won't. That is regardless of any evidence shown. That is what we have seen over the past few weeks. Some people on the fence may get off the fence but they are not normally the people that make a difference in something like this.

Anyway at least people are taking it all seriously for now, well most people are anyway. Still not a strong reaction from women's groups

My suspicion is that Hamas are deliberately releasing the well-treated hostages, and not the ones who were abused, for PR purposes.
It's obvious to me that terrible atrocities were committed against women on October 7th.
I can't bear to read about it. I also can't bear to read about the horrors innocent Palestinians are currently suffering. All of it is just so awful, and genuinely think it's broken my heart. I wake up with a sense of dread these days. Poor poor innocents on both sides 😔

I’m a bit speechless about this narrative.
there are reports that children were drugged and burned and marked, forced to watch the October 7th atrocities at gunpoint, three year old twins (cunio) were separated and one taken away from her family (for what purpose other than further psychological torture for the family), Mia schems arm was operated on by a vet, maya regev (sickeningly touted as liking her captors when she came out) was rushed immediately into surgery in Israel due to the gunshot wound in her leg not being treated. Every family that has been returned is compromised, they have relatives (often a father) still in captivity. Reports of psychological torture, and physical beatings of the Israeli hostages, including the kids. Medications not provided to elderly hostages; aisha and belal, the Bedouins recently released are extremely worried about their father still in captivity, who is diabetic. Elma avraham came out on the brink of death. One child was kept in solitary confinement for 16 days. They all lost weight and some of the children are barely able to speak.

and even before all that, they were kidnapped after witnessing the bloody murder of their closest family and friends. Some came out and learned how many of their family had been murdered, or still remained in captivity. Little avigail idan, who turned 4 in captivity came out to no parents, both murdered and a sibling so traumatised he has still not spoken since October 7th. Emily hand thought she had been hostage for a year, and spoke only in whispers.

what a sick and twisted narrative to say they treated the hostages well. The same Hamas who broke every basic human boundary on October 7th suddenly found their humanity and treated the hostages well?

The reason you are not seeing and hearing their stories publicly is because the hostages need to recover psychologically and physically comes way before our need to know what happened to them.

@EllaDisenchanted

Given Hamas general behaviour towards women it would be no surprise that women held captive have been subject to some form of sexual assault but the women obviously may not wish to disclose very sensitive details and I am very much afraid that if they did there would be some in the international community that would denounce them as liars and an attempt to further politicize the conflict.

Hilary Clinton I see now has added her voice to the condemnation of this sexual violence which is welcome.

Imagine if your last minutes on earth were to be brutlaised by men in intense pain and humiliation knowing death was to come. The Israeli people know this was the fate of women on October 7th and they knew the organisation that has ordered it and was prepared to use such tactics again. Can I ask if you were leader of that country and had the chance to eradicate such an evil organisation would you not take it?

I also think this is an important discussion and should not be deflected from by cries 'but the IDF'. September the 11th was motivated partially by the Israel Palestinian tensions and no one excused that atrocity by saying well 'you know Israel Palestine it was a valid response' as that would be sickening.

The IN have lost impartiality currently in this conflict which is not their remit in that there have been no calls for Hamas to stop firing rockets or to give themselves up to Israeli or International jusrice. We must not forget Hamas is a hideous criminal enterprise.

There are those that wish to push October 7th under the carpet and air brushing true extent from history to just leave the Israeli action to remove Hamas as the only future narrarive. Let's hope this doesn't happen.

Also, there is absolutely zero trust in the UN in Israel. They are already poorly regarded here, but they broke that trust with their mealy mouthed, far too late, pathetic statements about October 7th. UNwomen took 7 weeks to bother to condemn the attack, originally tweeting that they condemned Hamas, and the deleting that tweet, to remove the condemnation of Hamas.

“We condemn the brutal attacks by Hamas on October 7 and continue to call for the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages,” read the initial statement, posted on UN Women’s instagram page. It was soon replaced with a statement that dropped the condemnation of Hamas and only called for the release of the hostages.”

https://www.jta.org/2023/11/27/israel/after-backlash-over-silence-un-women-tweets-then-deletes-statement-condemning-hamas-attack-in-israel

To give them access to our most traumatised and vulnerable people, and to allow them to bear witness to our pain, after their clear disinterest and uncaring attitude, and put our trust in them to make an honest unbiased report is asking too much.

the UNs response has been shocking
https://unwatch.org/un-officials-and-bodies-react-to-october-2023-hamas-massacre-and-its-aftermath/

Dear god…

@sadsister23
What would a more proportional response look like? And did you also complain of a lack of proportionality when hostages were getting exchanged 1 hostage for 3 prisoners/detainees?

I definitely don't agree with the nuking post though. That kind of rhetoric won't help anyone.

@mids2019 I’m grateful to you for starting this thread. We have a responsibility to speak up for these women where we can.

What exactly isn't true? And what are you basing that on?

The UN has been calling out potential war crimes against Israel, so I can see why Israeli government would feel they are biased.

However the ICC is independent of the UN, Israel did support the nomination of its current prosecutor who is felt to be biased towards Israel (delayed prior ongoing court cases) . The prosecutor has already been to visit Israel, and spoken about war crimes take place on 7/10.

Yet, I doubt Israel would co- operate with an independent investigation by the ICC - they may also ask Israel to co- operate with current cases against it.

“Khan said his office will be happy to cooperate with Israel in investigating the events of October 7, and that he will not be deterred from conducting an investigation, even if Israel maintains its current policy of not recognizing the court’s jurisdiction and not cooperating with it.”

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-03/ty-article/icc-prosecutor-calls-oct-7-hamas-attack-on-israelis-serious-international-crimes/0000018c-3069-da74-afce-b5f926bb0000

Palestine/Gaza/Hammas launched a brutal attack on civilian Israel, deliberately waging terror, brutality, torture, degradation- bestial behaviour.

I’m not sure why people are so keen to separate Hammas from Palestinians.
The scale is shocking- it’s not a tiny handful of guerilla fighters, it was an organised massacre.

I’m not sure why it’s taken so long for the world and the UN to recognise the depravity of the October 7th attacks.
It was evident from Hamas’ own reporting, and the celebration around the body of a rape victim was despicable. It’s all a bit Owen Jones. Well we can’t actually see the rape. Well we don’t know the girl was alive when her head was chopped off with a shovel.

It didn’t happen.
Well if it did, it wasn’t that bad
Well, you made them do it

I definitely don't agree with the nuking post though. That kind of rhetoric won't help anyone.

It should go without saying, but for the record, me too.

When would 3 for 1 be fair

Well for example if one organisation had been taking and holding people for decades and had a few thousand whose detainment was disputed and the other side only had a few hundred then they might be pushing for 10 to 1

I am disgusted at your response to the rape, torture and killing of women.

You are exactly what people talk about with the denial of what happened on 7th October.

As a victim of sexual assault, when I hear comments from individuals like you it makes me understand why so many sexual assault cases go unpunished here in thd UK and overseas. No one else saw my assault, it wasn't filmed, there were no terrified women watching to say what happened. It happened. It sickens me that women spew these type of vile comments. You are basically calling the women who witnessed other women being raped and managed to survive, by hiding, liars. How dare you. That's vile. You are part of the problem. Men, terrorists, abusers just love individuals like you, you help them avoid justice by contributing to the denial. You should be ashamed of your comments, but I doubt you have the self awareness.

It happened. Just because some of the freed hostages were fed and said they were looked after doesn't deny the crimes that happened to other women on 7th October. There are many reasons why they would say this, many. Every woman wasn't raped, some were taken, some were raped, some were tortured and some murdered.

Yet regardless of this growing evidence we still have the denials, minimising, whataboutery, changing the subject. Even on a thread about this one subject people want to change the topic away from what occurred. Shameful.

The problem is there are almost 2 billion Muslims and less than 15 million Jews. And all the young Muslims are online supporting Hamas and changing narratives to suit the pro Palestine and anti Israel agenda. There just aren’t as many Jews who can stand up against this, and the Israelis can’t get it right in the face of such opposition. It doesn’t matter what the truth is, just the optics. You just need ten Palestinian tiktokers reporting from gaza saying Israel are carpet bombing and their freedom fighters would never rape anyone for it to be shared over and over, and Israel have the big guns and the IDF so it must be true? In the face of this how can the UN actually function? The loudest voices will just say it’s pro Israel propaganda anyway.

@pickledandpuzzled
”I’m not sure why people are so keen to separate Hammas from Palestinians.”

Probably same reasons people on other posts have said to not equate actions of Israeli government and IDF with the will and nature of the Israeli people, with some even calling it antisemitic!

The last election in Gaza was in 2006 and most of its population would have not taken part due to being children or not yet born!

Im not sure how innocent children deserve to die for the rape of women by others.

I can’t move on from what I’ve read about oct 7th. I have two teen dds. I condemn the killing of innocent civilians in Palestine and wish that the Israelis could have paused after the attack and turned the other cheek. That would have exposed these monsters.

But I am so sickened by the downplaying of the Oct 7th attack. Hamas are unspeakable and there were many of them and they have support for those crimes This is not easy to navigate mentally.

Yes.