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Conflict in the Middle East

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Original poster

Horrors of violence towards women on October the 7th suppressed

477 replies

mids2019 · 04/12/2023 21:05

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67613153

It looks like the UN may have been reluctant to investigate or highlight the sickening sexual violence committed on October 7th. It also appears some of the hostages may have been abused.

Was this because the horrendous violence doesn't fit in with that purely Palestinians are victims of this ongoing conflict? Are investigations into these crimes because women are viewed as second class citizens or the revelations 'muddy the waters' where some just want to see one side as the victim.

Israeli soldiers hug as they look at pictures of the Nova music festival victims at the site of the festival near Kibbutz Reim

Hamas planned sexual violence as weapon of war - Israeli campaigner

An Israeli campaigner says militants planned acts of sexual violence committed in October's attack.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67613153

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34
Original poster
mids2019 · 04/12/2023 23:06

@Anotherdayanotherdiet

The UN should investigate and yes the crimes should be highlighted as much as possible while preserving the dignity of the women. The reason for highlighting the atrocities is to continue to remind people of the reason Israel have of having to remove Hamas in all its forms

It belittles the victims by denying the events of October 7th and many if the witnesses have no reason to lie; why would they,?

I think it just suits the agenda of some to not highlight aspects of the Hamas sub human behaviour as they want a single narrative going forward.

OP posts:
sadsister23 · 04/12/2023 23:09

Maybe I'm missing something here but why should Palestinian civilians, including children, be killed and maimed for the actions of Hamas? What happened on October 7th wasn't right but it doesn't justify the carpet bombing of civilians

stormy4319trevor · 04/12/2023 23:11

@DifficultBloodyWoman The nuking thing is very worrying. If Israel has nukes I am sure there are laws about declaring them and having inspections etc. Which hasn't happened, I think. You should see someone about the wish to nuke a population, I think. It isn't a normal or healthy response to want to punish innocent people. Independent investigations should take place regarding Oct 7th, and justice be served in a more civilised way than you suggest.

Original poster
mids2019 · 04/12/2023 23:13

@Sussurations

Incredible isn't it? How can someone be so conspiratorially minded to think that events of October 7th were made up. The terrorists filmed it!

I think that Owen Jones may find himself in a professional hole for his views. Like many on the hard left October 7th undermined the continued belief that there was only one aggressor in the decades old Israel - Palestine conflict and obfuscation or conspiracy are the only avenues left.

I have to give some credit to the BBC for highlighting this issue with professional opinion and Mishal Hussein did a good job of interviewing the lawyer in the piece without in any way questioning her integrity.

OP posts:
Happyvalleyfan · 04/12/2023 23:13

mids2019 · 04/12/2023 23:06

@Anotherdayanotherdiet

The UN should investigate and yes the crimes should be highlighted as much as possible while preserving the dignity of the women. The reason for highlighting the atrocities is to continue to remind people of the reason Israel have of having to remove Hamas in all its forms

It belittles the victims by denying the events of October 7th and many if the witnesses have no reason to lie; why would they,?

I think it just suits the agenda of some to not highlight aspects of the Hamas sub human behaviour as they want a single narrative going forward.

Why won’t Israel let the UN investigate?
I agree it belittles victims by denying what happened. Letting the UN speak to witnesses will cut through all the disinformation.

Parkingt111 · 04/12/2023 23:15

@stormy4319trevor I think you were quite kind in your response
Yes certainly not normal to think like that but this sort of thinking is increasing. It shows that radicalisation is not a one sided concept.

stormy4319trevor · 04/12/2023 23:16

Sussurations · 04/12/2023 23:04

Some people are denying it - I have seen awful
posts here on Mumsnet saying there is no ‘proof’ that rapes happened.

Owen Jones, who now seems to be positively deranged as well as morally and intellectually bankrupt, has been arguing that there isn’t definitive proof of rapes, and generally downplaying the horror of 7 Oct, certainly implying if not actually stating that it’s some kind of Jewish false flag conspiracy.

I thought he was only talking about the film screening for journalists and saying there was no rape shown? I didn't think he was saying it definitely hadn't happened, just that it wasn't in the footage he saw.

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 04/12/2023 23:16

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Original poster
mids2019 · 04/12/2023 23:19

@sadsister23

The Israelis are trying to root out Hamas and there unfortunately have been civilian casualties. There is an inevitibality about this given the population density and the fact Hamas having no regard for human life are using human shields. It may be we see less bombing now as the IDF seem to be engaging more on the ground.

Whatever the nature of telhe incursion into Gaza however there is no need to suppress the events of 7/10 or victims stories due to a fear of being accused of politicisation. The events are well documented and there can be no moral equivalence between the IDF and the rabid monsters that commited the crimes discussed above.

OP posts:
stormy4319trevor · 04/12/2023 23:20

@Parkingt111 Too much hatred and blinkered vision. But It think it must come from an unhappy place.

Original poster
mids2019 · 04/12/2023 23:25

@Happyvalleyfan

Interesting question. I think there has to be a lot of trust to be built up between the UN and Israel as a lot of the rhetoric from the UN about the conflict has been one sided and has diminished the barbarous nature of October 7th. The UN basically said the events described above and on many other threads did not occur in a vacuum i.e. implicitly justifying them. Sorry there can never be justification.

So the UN should investigate but whether they will do whole heartedly or without bias is a matter of conjecture.

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sadsister23 · 04/12/2023 23:25

mids2019 · 04/12/2023 23:19

@sadsister23

The Israelis are trying to root out Hamas and there unfortunately have been civilian casualties. There is an inevitibality about this given the population density and the fact Hamas having no regard for human life are using human shields. It may be we see less bombing now as the IDF seem to be engaging more on the ground.

Whatever the nature of telhe incursion into Gaza however there is no need to suppress the events of 7/10 or victims stories due to a fear of being accused of politicisation. The events are well documented and there can be no moral equivalence between the IDF and the rabid monsters that commited the crimes discussed above.

I agree that the events of October 7th should be shared and known about. I condemn Hamas' atrocities whilst also condemning Israel's. I have been haunted by the images I have seen of Palestinian children crying because their parents and siblings are dead or shaking with terror/ptsd. No innocent people, Israeli or Palestinian, should ever have been caught up in this and I am scared to see where it will end.

Muthaofcats · 04/12/2023 23:28

Because rape undermines the freedom fighter and victim narrative, so it’s easier to ignore or say it’s untrue.

Jewish women and girls don’t garner sympathy because a lot of people hate jews even more than they hate terrorists.

Original poster
mids2019 · 04/12/2023 23:31

@sadsister23

I agree completely that no one wants to see the death of children but I still think it important to highlight the moral chasm between Hamas and their terrorist actions (,which can be listed though they are graphic) and a professional army.

The way to end the death and destruction in Gaza is for Hamas to surrender for their own people's protection and to face justice I. Israeli courts.

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Original poster
mids2019 · 04/12/2023 23:35

@sadsister23

Again no one disputes the current misery of Palestinians but this should not be used as an excuse to undermine or diminish the painful stories coming out of October 7th. The thing that is concerning that there are those (like Owen Jones) that brush over or ignore these stories as it does not fit a narrative

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sadsister23 · 04/12/2023 23:37

mids2019 · 04/12/2023 23:31

@sadsister23

I agree completely that no one wants to see the death of children but I still think it important to highlight the moral chasm between Hamas and their terrorist actions (,which can be listed though they are graphic) and a professional army.

The way to end the death and destruction in Gaza is for Hamas to surrender for their own people's protection and to face justice I. Israeli courts.

It is well documented that Hamas do not care for the Palestinian people and are happy to use them as human shields so i wonder why Israel is using the killing of civilians as motivation for Hamas to give themselves up. I fear the deaths of the Palestinian people will be in vain and the destruction of Palestine will continue until there is nothing left.

Saschka · 04/12/2023 23:37

No, your sentence was correct the first time. How do you imagine you might nuke Gaza without killing every Palestinian?

Edited to add: that was a reply to @DifficultBloodyWoman

XRAYTHIS · 04/12/2023 23:37

Rape of women, children and men is not resistance. It's rape.

The denial, the minimising and whataboutery around rape is disgusting.

The deafening silence of many women's groups is telling.

There is plenty if evidence and more coming out all of the time. Sick individuals don't get to watch rape to satisfy their twisted minds before they know its true.

I believe the women. I believe the witnesses. I believe the dead bodies of women with broken pelvises, signs of mutilation. I've read some of the first responses accounts what Hamas, other terrorists and some civilians did was vile.
No excuses.

Goodornot · 04/12/2023 23:58

sadsister23 · 04/12/2023 23:09

Maybe I'm missing something here but why should Palestinian civilians, including children, be killed and maimed for the actions of Hamas? What happened on October 7th wasn't right but it doesn't justify the carpet bombing of civilians

There we are. First whatabouter...only made it to page 2

Wasn't right? Is that all you've got to say?

sadsister23 · 05/12/2023 00:14

@Goodornot im not asking 'what about' im trying to understand why Israel has launched a disproportionate response. I am genuinely here to learn more - I am not taking sides and I condemn all the killing and terror in this situation.

sadsister23 · 05/12/2023 00:15

@Goodornot I am also seeking to understand why some people appear to think the killing of innocent Palestinians in retaliation is ok?

Trulywonderful · 05/12/2023 00:41

Goodornot · 04/12/2023 21:13

Wonder how long it will be before someone comes on and plays it down and makes excuses for it.

It doesn't surprise me that everyone wants to play down Hamas' actions.

So many on here have a new hobby of posting all the pro hamas crap they can find and ignoring anything about the shocking violence these poor women suffered on 07/10.

I would say that started to happen around the 20th post mark roughly bur a couple of other posts before were doing a slow build up to it

20th ish post isn't to bad. I was expecting the slow sly slide into it start to happen sooner

Trulywonderful · 05/12/2023 00:43

mids2019 · 04/12/2023 23:13

@Sussurations

Incredible isn't it? How can someone be so conspiratorially minded to think that events of October 7th were made up. The terrorists filmed it!

I think that Owen Jones may find himself in a professional hole for his views. Like many on the hard left October 7th undermined the continued belief that there was only one aggressor in the decades old Israel - Palestine conflict and obfuscation or conspiracy are the only avenues left.

I have to give some credit to the BBC for highlighting this issue with professional opinion and Mishal Hussein did a good job of interviewing the lawyer in the piece without in any way questioning her integrity.

Agree

And hope this ended up being the down fall of Owen Jones too. He is beyond vile and this has shown his true colours to everyone

Trulywonderful · 05/12/2023 00:48

Muthaofcats · 04/12/2023 23:28

Because rape undermines the freedom fighter and victim narrative, so it’s easier to ignore or say it’s untrue.

Jewish women and girls don’t garner sympathy because a lot of people hate jews even more than they hate terrorists.

This

Trulywonderful · 05/12/2023 00:50

XRAYTHIS · 04/12/2023 23:37

Rape of women, children and men is not resistance. It's rape.

The denial, the minimising and whataboutery around rape is disgusting.

The deafening silence of many women's groups is telling.

There is plenty if evidence and more coming out all of the time. Sick individuals don't get to watch rape to satisfy their twisted minds before they know its true.

I believe the women. I believe the witnesses. I believe the dead bodies of women with broken pelvises, signs of mutilation. I've read some of the first responses accounts what Hamas, other terrorists and some civilians did was vile.
No excuses.

Totally agree