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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Netanyahu and Hamas

219 replies

AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 16:47

I am very confused about the Israel/Gaza situation and find it almost impossible to read about it without getting tangled up in how people who support the citizens of Gaza are pro hamas/anti semitic etc.

But I've heard from a few places now that Netanyahu actually encouraged Hamas so as to divide Gaza and the West Bank. I'm surprised there hasn't been more made of this as surely this means he has a lot of blood on his hands.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

Help me understand please.

OP posts:
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11
stomachameleon · 09/12/2023 23:46

@OuiOuiKitty

The new document states the Islamist movement it is not seeking war with the Jewish people – only with Zionism

So they are denying the right of Israel to exist. And ' not seeking war' does not really explain the whole murdering lots of civilians and taking them hostage.

Someone not read the charter. 2.1?

OuiOuiKitty · 10/12/2023 00:13

stomachameleon · 09/12/2023 23:46

@OuiOuiKitty

The new document states the Islamist movement it is not seeking war with the Jewish people – only with Zionism

So they are denying the right of Israel to exist. And ' not seeking war' does not really explain the whole murdering lots of civilians and taking them hostage.

Someone not read the charter. 2.1?

I'm not saying that they are a great bunch of lads. It's not right to say that they will never accept a 2 state solution though when they have said that they will and Israel rejected it. Perhaps if Israel would have agreed it would have all gone to shit, but we will never know because they didn't.

I've always said that there are 2 of them in it. Israel have been very open with their genocidal wishes and their want to have all the land for themselves. The only difference is that nobody seems to believe Israel even when they are carrying out their plan.

stomachameleon · 10/12/2023 10:15

@OuiOuiKitty I agree that extremists from both sides have held up and and tried to thwart the two state solution.

We will have to agree to disagree about the 'genocidal wishes' of Israel as a whole though. I believe a lot of people are focused on peace and I hope this will give both sides impetus to find a way to get it.

Dulra · 10/12/2023 11:35

We will have to agree to disagree about the 'genocidal wishes' of Israel as a whole though. I believe a lot of people are focused on peace and I hope this will give both sides impetus to find a way to get it.

Actions speak a lot louder than words, I can't see any current actions from the IDF that are focused on peace. I'm not being goady here @stomachameleon but I'd love if you could point out how Israel are focused on peace because I genuinely would love to think they are. There has been far too much death and suffering on both sides in such a short space of time and peace feels so far away.

Original poster
AdamRyan · 10/12/2023 11:43

Parkingt111 · 09/12/2023 22:36

@AdamRyan you may find this helpful
Its not a long read but it is quite informative of the current stance and future hopes of those involved in the war.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67652494

That's a really interesting article, thank you.

In and out of office, Benjamin Netanyahu has worked consistently hard to thwart Palestinian independence. It is safe to say he is not about to change his mind. If the two-state solution can be revived, it won't happen while he is prime minister.

I can't see how this can end when Netanyahu has staked all his credibility on "eliminating Hamas". It seems like an impossible objective and he doesn't come across as the kind of man who backs down.

OP posts:
ssd · 10/12/2023 12:14

Dulra · 09/12/2023 23:43

To be fair the only people that seem to be eliminating anyone at the moment are the IDF eliminating the Gazans. It is extremely difficult to read posts from you and others talking about an horrific terrorist attack by Hamas in Israel and giving out to posters for not continually mentioning it but not once do I ever hear you or other posters like you show any sympathy whatsoever for the thousands of innocent civilians in Gaza. I will not ever accept that some lives matter more than others.
You may see Israel as the only"mover" whatever that's meant to mean, but I think Israel have lost all credibility and the world is finally seeing them for what they are, their mask has well and truly slipped.

Show quote history

Absolutely 👏👏

stomachameleon · 10/12/2023 12:26

@Dulra I know your not and it's fine.
I honestly don't see post 7/10 that Israel had much of a choice regarding what they did next. None of the options on the table were 'good' though. I see the devastation this is causing both sides. How can either justify their actions?
I think pre 7/10 things were moving favourably with regard to Israel and the Hamas leadership couldn't bear it. Something had to happen.
I do think it's much more nuanced though than big bad Israel and poor downtrodden Gaza.
The people of Israel are suffering and thousands displaced. Many sit night after night with rockets whistling overhead. Or in safe rooms and bomb shelters. I Don't see much empathy for that on here. For the terror. Especially in light of what has happened.

I hope (and I realise it's hope) that when Netanyahu goes and we are Post conflict peace can be achieved for all. I know there are extremists in Israel and I hope they are clamped down on. I hope the two state solution can come into fruition.

To answer your question I don't think either side are focused on peace at the moment because they are In a state of conflict. And anger. And retaliation. It's like a bridge too far.

mollyfolk · 10/12/2023 12:35

stomachameleon · 10/12/2023 10:15

@OuiOuiKitty I agree that extremists from both sides have held up and and tried to thwart the two state solution.

We will have to agree to disagree about the 'genocidal wishes' of Israel as a whole though. I believe a lot of people are focused on peace and I hope this will give both sides impetus to find a way to get it.

Personally when I speak of Israel , I mean the Israeli government. Of course most Israeli citizens don’t believe this compares to genocide. If they did they wouldn’t support it. It’s my impression that most Israelis and people around the world who support Israel are being sold this idea that the death figures are wrong number one and that Hamas are using civilians as human shields in a way that means the IDF are forced to kill alot of them - so they see them as collateral damage. Also this idea of “killing them before they kill us” justifies it more in their minds.

of course most ordinary people everywhere just want to live in peace and go about their normal lives.

Toothyfruity · 10/12/2023 12:41

stomachameleon · 10/12/2023 12:26

@Dulra I know your not and it's fine.
I honestly don't see post 7/10 that Israel had much of a choice regarding what they did next. None of the options on the table were 'good' though. I see the devastation this is causing both sides. How can either justify their actions?
I think pre 7/10 things were moving favourably with regard to Israel and the Hamas leadership couldn't bear it. Something had to happen.
I do think it's much more nuanced though than big bad Israel and poor downtrodden Gaza.
The people of Israel are suffering and thousands displaced. Many sit night after night with rockets whistling overhead. Or in safe rooms and bomb shelters. I Don't see much empathy for that on here. For the terror. Especially in light of what has happened.

I hope (and I realise it's hope) that when Netanyahu goes and we are Post conflict peace can be achieved for all. I know there are extremists in Israel and I hope they are clamped down on. I hope the two state solution can come into fruition.

To answer your question I don't think either side are focused on peace at the moment because they are In a state of conflict. And anger. And retaliation. It's like a bridge too far.

Your post ignores the scale of the devastation though. When Israel eventually stops bombing what will be left of Gaza?

Most people have no homes now, the IDF has destroyed hospitals, schools, infrastructure for power and water. What will they do?

How can Palestinians agree to a post conflict peace agreement after their neighbour has tried to flatten their entire territory and is causing them to die of starvation, thirst and lack of access to medicine? I think the two state solution has never been further away. Israel is working hard on a one state solution that suits itself.

stomachameleon · 10/12/2023 12:46

@mollyfolk no one I know thinks the figures are wrong.

I believe that to be true about the human shields and where rockets are being fired from. And due to Gaza's size the tunnels underneath are a rabbit warren that put civilians at risk. The actions of Hamas put civilians at risk full stop.

I think your last point is Particularly true. It feeds into everyone's worst fears. And it came true. In the worst way....

stomachameleon · 10/12/2023 12:55

How can Palestinians agree to a post conflict peace agreement after their neighbour has tried to flatten their entire territory and is causing them to die of starvation, thirst and lack of access to medicine? @Toothyfruity

What's the other option then?

I was going to write a 'you know why this is happening' post.
But I am not.
I hope they can rebuild if the appetite is there or they are given sanctuary elsewhere.
The billions they receive in aid goes to the Palestinians rather than Hamas.
I hope other Arab countries with extreme wealth assist the area in regeneration and rebuilding. And universal peacekeeping.
I hope for peace.

Original poster
AdamRyan · 10/12/2023 13:11

The billions they receive in aid goes to the Palestinians rather than Hamas.

Unless there is a different governing party it will have to go to Hamas because they are the administration.

If/when Netanyahu succeeds in "eliminating Hamas" its not at all clear what the next steps for the administration of Gaza are.

I hope other Arab countries with extreme wealth assist the area in regeneration and rebuilding. And universal peacekeeping.
Netanyahu won't accept any Arab involvement in peacekeeping.

From the Jeremy Bowen article above:
Netanyahu has rejected a role for foreign peacekeepers, assuming they can be found. Jordan's foreign minister Ayman Safadi has already said that Arab states would not "clean the mess" left by Israel.
"There will be no Arab troops going to Gaza. None. We are not going to be seen as the enemy."

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stomachameleon · 10/12/2023 13:22

@AdamRyan that's why I have said on numerous occasions ' when Netanyahu goes'.

I think that's quite a key element of peace succeeding.

Original poster
AdamRyan · 10/12/2023 13:33

Even if Netanyahu goes I doubt the "rich Arab countries" will want to be involved unless its as part of a bigger international response including Western, pro Israeli governments. The Israeli government is going to have to pitch in too.

Otherwise there is potentially a risk to the Arab states of being seen as encouraging/upholding any future terror threat from Palestinian terrorist groups.

OP posts:
stomachameleon · 10/12/2023 13:51

@AdamRyan do you not think that ship has sailed. Where do the hierarchy of Hamas live?
I don't see an issue with everyone pitching in. I think it's probably the way forward.

Parkingt111 · 10/12/2023 14:21

@stomachameleon Gaza is going to he more or less wasteland after this war
I don't see how the people will carry on living there when most of the infrastructure is destroyed
Some would object to the notion that in someway its OK for Israel to destroy it all because some rich arabs can re build it again

I know you don't mean that but some do

Polka83 · 10/12/2023 21:25

eardefender · 09/12/2023 22:55

It’s strange to see posters critical of Israel for not wanting a two state solution. Are people aware that hamas does not want a two state solution and would never agree to it. They have been consistently clear on this. Why don’t people listen to them. They want to eliminate Jews. That is their doctrine. They are religious nutters and terrorists.
It is amazing that October 7th was actually Jewish people’s fault really because they are in on a conspiracy. That is pure anti Semitic and a trope as old as time. Jews controlling everything. They have just been through a horrific terrorist attack have some sympathy for them jeez.
if you want conspiracy theory then look at the actions of Iran and Qatar. Also the pa itself, they don’t want to run Gaza. They have no credibility and are not able to manage anything well, they are totally corrupt and not fit for purpose according to their own people. Israel is not the only mover in the Middle East and in this conflict.

I am sure my understanding of the situation is incomplete, but I recently saw in SM a link suggesting Hamas would have worked to a 2 state solution in 2015. There were presumably stumbling blocks eg return to 1967 boundaries, but there position did shift at that point (aware what has been done and said recently by Hamas) - but in 2015:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-offers-long-term-ceasefire-in-exchange-for-end-of-blockade/amp/

fleurneige · 21/01/2024 13:11

Netanyahu is pure evil. Jewish friends from Israel say that many there believe he actually 'allowed' the attack of 7th of October to go ahead- so he would have the final excuse to destroy Gaza and all Palestinians, once and for all- as he says himself, from the river to the sea. He had plenty of warnings of the attacks, and his military intelligence, drones and other very spohisticated technology, could have detroyed the Hamas attack at the border or just beyond. He chose not to. Why?

etmoiandme · 21/01/2024 13:28

Jewish friends from Israel say that many there believe he actually 'allowed' the attack of 7th of October to go ahead

🙄

stomachameleon · 21/01/2024 13:43
Hmm
Polka83 · 21/01/2024 14:18

@fleurneige
I wonder if the extent of the attack took everyone by surprise. After all, this appears to have been the most serious assault by an enormous margin.

I cannot believe in hindsight anyone would have acted differently. Those multiple warnings from so different sources should have been listened to and the risks not minimised.

However- given the actions of the IDF since Oct 7th and the words of certain Israeli government MPs including Netanyahu - it does appear that the ulterior motives of not wanting a Palestinian state to exist are also being advanced.

ChaosHero · 21/01/2024 14:23

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Auvergne63 · 21/01/2024 14:28

fleurneige · 21/01/2024 13:11

Netanyahu is pure evil. Jewish friends from Israel say that many there believe he actually 'allowed' the attack of 7th of October to go ahead- so he would have the final excuse to destroy Gaza and all Palestinians, once and for all- as he says himself, from the river to the sea. He had plenty of warnings of the attacks, and his military intelligence, drones and other very spohisticated technology, could have detroyed the Hamas attack at the border or just beyond. He chose not to. Why?

I think there is an element of truth in what your friends are believing.

fleurneige · 21/01/2024 14:50

ChaosHero- plenty of evidence that he and the military had many very serious warnings of imminent attack. Plenty of evidence that Hamas had to take down the border fence with huge bulldozers and that it took some time- that the border has video surveillance, and that there is about 30km between the border and the Kibbutz that was attacked- so about 30mins to 1 hour. And plenty of evidence that Israel has very sophisticated surveillance and military technology to blast such an attack into oblivion before it could do damage. No question.