Netanyahu and Hamas

[AdamRyan]

I am very confused about the Israel/Gaza situation and find it almost impossible to read about it without getting tangled up in how people who support the citizens of Gaza are pro hamas/anti semitic etc.

But I've heard from a few places now that Netanyahu actually encouraged Hamas so as to divide Gaza and the West Bank. I'm surprised there hasn't been more made of this as surely this means he has a lot of blood on his hands.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

Help me understand please.

Not sure I understand the distinction? If you oppose and are critical of Zionism - surely that means you are not pro-Zionism?

What do you think? Was Iago or Othello to blame for Desdemona's death?

Oh wow, what a very strange way of declaring you don't think Jews have the right to self-determination. Are there any other groups of people you don't think deserve a homeland or is it just Jews who in your opinion aren't worthy of one?

Being anti-zionism means being against the existence of a (predominantly but obviously not exclusively) Jewish state of Israel. If you're ok with that then fine, if not you should probably stop saying you are anti zionism. That's up to you. But just be aware that if you are against the existence of a Jewish state of Israel, you will have to do an awful lot of explaining as to how that doesn't make you antisemitic as you're saying Jews don't have the right to a homeland.

The following quote is from the link I previously sent - it suggests that the following would not be antisemitic and hence not agree with your definition:

Criticizing or opposing Zionism as a form of nationalism, or arguing for a variety of constitutional arrangements for Jews and Palestinians in the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean. It is not antisemitic to support arrangements that accord full equality to all inhabitants “between the river and the sea,” whether in two states, a binational state, unitary democratic state, federal state, or in whatever form.

My view- Israelis and Palestinians need to live with equal rights and freedom in the region.

In two states? Or in one?

@Humdingerydoo

Did you support the Islamic Caliphate that Isis was trying to establish?

If one religion can have a the right to declare an area of land as their homeland and violently displace the people who live there, why can other religions not do the same.

I appreciate you setting such store to my opinion 😉

I can understand the need for both Jews in Israel as well as Palestinians to have a collective form of identity within whatever form of statehood ultimately develops. I think ultimately it is up to the citizens of the region to consider how this develops.

I read the following article soon after 7/10- it goes through various pros and cons of various options from different view points.

https://carnegieendowment.org/files/CarnegieBaker_Palestine_Final1.pdf

@Humdingerydoo

Interesting article
https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic

My point was that if you're ok with the idea of a two state solution then congratulations - you're not an anti-zionist

Other religions have done the same. 900 000 forcibly displaced Jews comes to mind.

You're clearly not someone to be reasoned with as you for some reason think Jews are worth less than others, so never mind.

If the Israelis and Palestinians were happy with a confederated state- why would I object?

My main concern is that there are equal rights, opportunities and freedoms for ALL. The current form of nationalism / Zionism in Israel does not support it.

What do you think about the right of return of Palestinian refugees vs anyone of Jewish origin but no ties to Israel needing to pay much lower tax to buy a property in Israel? I can understand why Israel may choose to do this - but would seem to be racist in some people’s views? Some might also consider it racist to not provide equal opportunities to lease a home from the 2 biggest land owners in Israel too.

I suppose it's not any more racist than my MIL not being allowed to return to her country of birth just because she's Jewish. She's not even legally allowed to visit.

To be honest, I've never understood the whole birthright thing so I'm not going to defend it. I don't know anywhere near enough about it or the background to it. I do know though that Israel isn't the only country not to have a right to return for those previously displaced from there. Not sure why Israel should be the first country to start allowing it, why you expect more from Israel than from other countries. Maybe start campaigning for equal rights and a right to return for Jews everywhere and then Jews won't feel the need to go to the one country they're actually welcome in? Maybe that will help solve the problem. Not every solution has to start with the eradication of the one Jewish state.

I appreciate right to return is a difficult issue- and not unique to Israel. I used this to contrast the situation with those who do have a right to buy with cheaper rates, and lease land in Israel due to being Jewish- despite lack of ties to the region.
These presumably include people who are able to safely practice their religious in secular states such as US and in EU? I would understand need to make special compensation if unable to practice religion - as most civilised countries have?

Contrast this to people currently being driven out of the West Bank never mind the elderly Palestinians displaced in Gaza who lived in the region prior to the Nakba.

I am sorry to hear about your MIL - I also have family histories which echo with displacement and loss.

Who is responsible for anti-Semitism if not anti-Semites?