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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Netanyahu and Hamas

219 replies

AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 16:47

I am very confused about the Israel/Gaza situation and find it almost impossible to read about it without getting tangled up in how people who support the citizens of Gaza are pro hamas/anti semitic etc.

But I've heard from a few places now that Netanyahu actually encouraged Hamas so as to divide Gaza and the West Bank. I'm surprised there hasn't been more made of this as surely this means he has a lot of blood on his hands.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

Help me understand please.

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11
RafaistheKingofClay · 06/12/2023 22:52

The change of weapons as suggested by the US would be a good start. The ones being used at the moment are inappropriate for densely populated areas and cause huge damage to civilians living nearby.

For that matter, if they are going to bomb residences, they could go back to pinpointing the exact property a Hamas operative lives in before targeting them. At least that way you could probably only kill them and their immediate family / close neighbour and not scores of people in the local area.

stomachameleon · 06/12/2023 23:00

@RafaistheKingofClay obviously they don't live in Hamas neighbourhoods though as they are entrenched with the general population.
So some death... Hamas operative, wife, kids and neighbours is acceptable?

RafaistheKingofClay · 06/12/2023 23:41

You asked about proportionate not acceptable. In an ideal world there would be no innocent casualties. But this is a war. That isn’t an excuse for not minimising the casualties where you can though.

I didn’t suggest they lived in Hamas neighbourhoods. Israel has very good intelligence and a high tech military. It almost certainly has the capability to take out Hamas operatives with far more precision and fewer civilian casualties than it currently is. There is no need for them to be flattening large areas with bombs that will do the most amount of damage over the largest area possible. They know how densely populated Gaza is. It is a deliberate choice to be killing this many civilians and has little to do with Hamas using civilians as shields despite what Israeli government propaganda might say.

Happyvalleyfan · 06/12/2023 23:42

cauliflowerwaterfall · 06/12/2023 21:41

Proportionality in international law is proportionality to the threat not to what has already happened (although it has to factor in what has happened to assess the threat). Proportionality isn’t about numbers, otherwise it would mean Israelis should go out and r—e exactly the same number of women & children and behead exactly the same number of civilians and kidnap exactly the same number of toddlers and shoot exactly the same number of children in front of exactly the same number of parents - that really would be retaliation - proportionality means means Israel should use the minimum level of force that is required compared against the threat. The threat to Israel is existential: Hamas wants them all dead. Hamas proved they can do it, will do it, and intend to do it again and again. Proportionality is comparing Israel’s actions to what Hamas is likely to do if Israel does nothing. On top of that, under the genocide convention Israel has a legal obligation to use devastating force against Hamas as a punishment for the genocide of October 7th.

“On top of that, under the genocide convention Israel has a legal obligation to use devastating force against Hamas as a punishment for the genocide of October 7th.”

Yeah right - which genocide convention is that?
Certainly not the UN one which most of the world has signed upto. Perhaps that’s why Israel can’t understand why most people think THEY are the ones committing genocide.

cauliflowerwaterfall · 07/12/2023 07:21

Dulra · 06/12/2023 21:50

The threat to Israel is existential: Hamas wants them all dead. Hamas proved they can do it, will do it, and intend to do it again and again.

What Hamas want and what they can do are two very different things. Hamas do not have the fire power or the manpower to kill all of Israel but Israel certainly do to kill all of Palestine.

On top of that, under the genocide convention Israel has a legal obligation to use devastating force against Hamas as a punishment for the genocide of October 7th.

As horrific as the attacks on October 7th were it was not genocide so the genocide convention does not apply here

Are you kidding me? Hamas murdered, r—ped, tortured, shot, dismembered, displaced thousands of Israelis in a matter of a couple of hours! Hours! And you want them to have more free hours. Hamas has plenty of firepower - rockets are still falling on Israel, not that anyone cares.

cauliflowerwaterfall · 07/12/2023 07:26

Happyvalleyfan · 06/12/2023 23:42

“On top of that, under the genocide convention Israel has a legal obligation to use devastating force against Hamas as a punishment for the genocide of October 7th.”

Yeah right - which genocide convention is that?
Certainly not the UN one which most of the world has signed upto. Perhaps that’s why Israel can’t understand why most people think THEY are the ones committing genocide.

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Sorry did you think “never again” and “punishment” meant a strongly worded letter? A tut and a shake of the head? A long sigh and a roll of the eyes?

Or did you think “never again” meant everyone saying “ok I won’t personally do a genocide but the rest of you Do You.”

No. “Never again” means genocide must be responded to with enough devastating force to punish the perpetrators such that they can never and will never do it again.

The rest of the world may have its eyes shut, but Israel sees Hamas for exactly what they are.

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:31

cauliflowerwaterfall · 07/12/2023 07:26

Sorry did you think “never again” and “punishment” meant a strongly worded letter? A tut and a shake of the head? A long sigh and a roll of the eyes?

Or did you think “never again” meant everyone saying “ok I won’t personally do a genocide but the rest of you Do You.”

No. “Never again” means genocide must be responded to with enough devastating force to punish the perpetrators such that they can never and will never do it again.

The rest of the world may have its eyes shut, but Israel sees Hamas for exactly what they are.

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I don't think using 'devasting force' against Israel is the answer to this tbh. Killing more innocent people in response to a bonkers government isn't the way forward. Of course Netanyahu and his cronies need to be held responsible but I'd hope we are all civilised to do that without 'devasting force' being used against Israeli civillians.

cauliflowerwaterfall · 07/12/2023 07:46

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:31

I don't think using 'devasting force' against Israel is the answer to this tbh. Killing more innocent people in response to a bonkers government isn't the way forward. Of course Netanyahu and his cronies need to be held responsible but I'd hope we are all civilised to do that without 'devasting force' being used against Israeli civillians.

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Not sure if you’re being facetious but the biggest mass-murder of Jews since the Holocaust happened 2 months ago so please don’t be sarcastic.

Hamas is explicitly genocidal. They are actively genocidal. To deny it or to try and DARVO the situation is genocide-denial.

Happyvalleyfan · 07/12/2023 07:53

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:31

I don't think using 'devasting force' against Israel is the answer to this tbh. Killing more innocent people in response to a bonkers government isn't the way forward. Of course Netanyahu and his cronies need to be held responsible but I'd hope we are all civilised to do that without 'devasting force' being used against Israeli civillians.

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The rest of the world does not have its eyes shut. It sees what happens on 7/10 and it sees what is happening now in Gaza.

If there is any merit in International law, then both Hamas and Netanyahu and his right wing cronies will have their time in the ICC.

Justifying the massacre of innocents in response to 7/10 is frankly abhorrent.

I hope the world doesn’t forget and if our generation can’t change the status quo, the future ones will.

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:55

cauliflowerwaterfall · 07/12/2023 07:46

Not sure if you’re being facetious but the biggest mass-murder of Jews since the Holocaust happened 2 months ago so please don’t be sarcastic.

Hamas is explicitly genocidal. They are actively genocidal. To deny it or to try and DARVO the situation is genocide-denial.

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Of course I'm not being facetious. Israeli is explicitly genocidal and actively genocidal. Israel have stated their aims and are actively starving over 2 million people of water, food and aid. Destroying health care facilities and killing medics. Even a fool wouldn't believe that a country actively starving over 2million people and removing all healthcare isn't trying to kill those people. What on earth else could it possibly be? Everybody knows that people need food and water to survive and everybody knows what happens when you remove that Confused

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:57

Happyvalleyfan · 07/12/2023 07:53

The rest of the world does not have its eyes shut. It sees what happens on 7/10 and it sees what is happening now in Gaza.

If there is any merit in International law, then both Hamas and Netanyahu and his right wing cronies will have their time in the ICC.

Justifying the massacre of innocents in response to 7/10 is frankly abhorrent.

I hope the world doesn’t forget and if our generation can’t change the status quo, the future ones will.

Edited
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Sorry? Where did I justify 7/10? I just said that I disagree with using 'devasting force' against genociders. Not wanting Israel blown to bits is hardly controversial.

Original poster
AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 08:56

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:55

Of course I'm not being facetious. Israeli is explicitly genocidal and actively genocidal. Israel have stated their aims and are actively starving over 2 million people of water, food and aid. Destroying health care facilities and killing medics. Even a fool wouldn't believe that a country actively starving over 2million people and removing all healthcare isn't trying to kill those people. What on earth else could it possibly be? Everybody knows that people need food and water to survive and everybody knows what happens when you remove that Confused

Edited
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Yes. To me it appears to be a siege and there are specific rules that Israel are not complying with
https://www.chathamhouse.org/2019/06/sieges-law-and-protecting-civilians-0/iii-rules-international-humanitarian-law-particularly

Belligerents must do everything feasible to verify that objectives against which they are directing attacks are neither civilians nor civilian objects and are not subject to special protection...in case of doubt as to whether a person is a civilian, that person must be considered a civilian. Similarly, in case of doubt as to whether an object normally dedicated to civilian purposes has become a military objective, it must be assumed that it has not.

It's also illegal to starve civilians under siege.

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RafaistheKingofClay · 07/12/2023 09:13

cauliflowerwaterfall · 07/12/2023 07:26

Sorry did you think “never again” and “punishment” meant a strongly worded letter? A tut and a shake of the head? A long sigh and a roll of the eyes?

Or did you think “never again” meant everyone saying “ok I won’t personally do a genocide but the rest of you Do You.”

No. “Never again” means genocide must be responded to with enough devastating force to punish the perpetrators such that they can never and will never do it again.

The rest of the world may have its eyes shut, but Israel sees Hamas for exactly what they are.

Show quote history

Nor did never again mean unless you are Israel in which case go ahead.

Israel’s action in Gaza is not going to wipe out Hamas. Even if it wipes out Palestinians in Gaza it stands no chance of working. Best case scenario Gaza is laid to waste and Hamas continues. Worst case pretty much the same but Israel have gone a long way to actively recruiting huge swathes of people to Hamas or whatever may follow with a genuine grievance against the Israeli government.

Original poster
AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 11:35

Exactly rafa

OP posts:
Original poster
AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 11:43

HeidiInTheBigCity · 06/12/2023 22:25

Then, I suppose, you are the bigger person than me!

Cheers!

I think your posts on this thread have been very interesting, thank you

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Happyvalleyfan · 07/12/2023 19:02

OuiOuiKitty · 07/12/2023 07:57

Sorry? Where did I justify 7/10? I just said that I disagree with using 'devasting force' against genociders. Not wanting Israel blown to bits is hardly controversial.

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Sorry @OuiOuiKitty - this was in reference to @cauliflowerwaterfall

When they said:
The rest of the world may have its eyes shut, but Israel sees Hamas for exactly what they are.
Tagged wrong quote

Wills · 08/12/2023 18:29

This has been a really interesting thread @AdamRyan and I've learnt loads but it still doesn't answer a question of mine. Why do we refer to Hamas and Palestinians when it's the Palestinians that have voted them in twice? People normally seem to talk about countries and their governments. Even in Northern Ireland we talk about the Irish government if anything or if stating politics then it might be Sinn Fien etc. If Palestinians have voted them into their ruling government why aren't we say Israel and Palestine?

EasterIssland · 08/12/2023 18:30

Wills · 08/12/2023 18:29

This has been a really interesting thread @AdamRyan and I've learnt loads but it still doesn't answer a question of mine. Why do we refer to Hamas and Palestinians when it's the Palestinians that have voted them in twice? People normally seem to talk about countries and their governments. Even in Northern Ireland we talk about the Irish government if anything or if stating politics then it might be Sinn Fien etc. If Palestinians have voted them into their ruling government why aren't we say Israel and Palestine?

How many of those alive voted have voted them? And when did they vote them?

Toothyfruity · 08/12/2023 18:31

Wills · 08/12/2023 18:29

This has been a really interesting thread @AdamRyan and I've learnt loads but it still doesn't answer a question of mine. Why do we refer to Hamas and Palestinians when it's the Palestinians that have voted them in twice? People normally seem to talk about countries and their governments. Even in Northern Ireland we talk about the Irish government if anything or if stating politics then it might be Sinn Fien etc. If Palestinians have voted them into their ruling government why aren't we say Israel and Palestine?

There hasn't been a vote in 17 years and also there's been a blockade for practically that entire time so it doesn't function as a free state.

Also Hamas governs Gaza which is not the entirety of Palestine. The Palestinian Authority tries to govern in the Occupied West Bank.

Offwiththecircus · 09/12/2023 15:36

On the original post/supposition, have heard it intimated at on a couple of trusted sources - BBC and Channel 4 news. I seem to remember that on the second the question was put to a member of the Israeli establishment and it wasn't exactly denied.
Sounds horrific I know, and deep conspiracy theory stuff, but historical folks might like to check out "the strategy of tension" in postwar Italy. This dark shit has a track record.

Original poster
AdamRyan · 09/12/2023 19:02

Wills · 08/12/2023 18:29

This has been a really interesting thread @AdamRyan and I've learnt loads but it still doesn't answer a question of mine. Why do we refer to Hamas and Palestinians when it's the Palestinians that have voted them in twice? People normally seem to talk about countries and their governments. Even in Northern Ireland we talk about the Irish government if anything or if stating politics then it might be Sinn Fien etc. If Palestinians have voted them into their ruling government why aren't we say Israel and Palestine?

I think because Gaza/Palestine are not countries. And as noted, there are different ruling parties in the west bank and Gaza so it would be confusing to say "Palestinian government"
And to go back to the original comment, I guess that's why Netanyahu was motivated to support Hamas, because it stops the Palestinians having a single voice and negotiating power when it comes to a two state solution.

OP posts:
eardefender · 09/12/2023 22:55

It’s strange to see posters critical of Israel for not wanting a two state solution. Are people aware that hamas does not want a two state solution and would never agree to it. They have been consistently clear on this. Why don’t people listen to them. They want to eliminate Jews. That is their doctrine. They are religious nutters and terrorists.
It is amazing that October 7th was actually Jewish people’s fault really because they are in on a conspiracy. That is pure anti Semitic and a trope as old as time. Jews controlling everything. They have just been through a horrific terrorist attack have some sympathy for them jeez.
if you want conspiracy theory then look at the actions of Iran and Qatar. Also the pa itself, they don’t want to run Gaza. They have no credibility and are not able to manage anything well, they are totally corrupt and not fit for purpose according to their own people. Israel is not the only mover in the Middle East and in this conflict.

OuiOuiKitty · 09/12/2023 23:32

It’s strange to see posters critical of Israel for not wanting a two state solution. Are people aware that hamas does not want a two state solution and would never agree to it. They have been consistently clear on this. Why don’t people listen to them. They want to eliminate Jews.

That isn't what their charter says. Hamas has a new political programme since 2017 softening its stance on Israel by accepting the idea of a Palestinian state in territories occupied by Israel in the six-day war of 1967.The new document states the Islamist movement it is not seeking war with the Jewish people – only with Zionism that drives the occupation of Palestine. Israel rejected it.

Dulra · 09/12/2023 23:43

eardefender · 09/12/2023 22:55

It’s strange to see posters critical of Israel for not wanting a two state solution. Are people aware that hamas does not want a two state solution and would never agree to it. They have been consistently clear on this. Why don’t people listen to them. They want to eliminate Jews. That is their doctrine. They are religious nutters and terrorists.
It is amazing that October 7th was actually Jewish people’s fault really because they are in on a conspiracy. That is pure anti Semitic and a trope as old as time. Jews controlling everything. They have just been through a horrific terrorist attack have some sympathy for them jeez.
if you want conspiracy theory then look at the actions of Iran and Qatar. Also the pa itself, they don’t want to run Gaza. They have no credibility and are not able to manage anything well, they are totally corrupt and not fit for purpose according to their own people. Israel is not the only mover in the Middle East and in this conflict.

To be fair the only people that seem to be eliminating anyone at the moment are the IDF eliminating the Gazans. It is extremely difficult to read posts from you and others talking about an horrific terrorist attack by Hamas in Israel and giving out to posters for not continually mentioning it but not once do I ever hear you or other posters like you show any sympathy whatsoever for the thousands of innocent civilians in Gaza. I will not ever accept that some lives matter more than others.
You may see Israel as the only"mover" whatever that's meant to mean, but I think Israel have lost all credibility and the world is finally seeing them for what they are, their mask has well and truly slipped.

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