Netanyahu and Hamas

[AdamRyan]

I am very confused about the Israel/Gaza situation and find it almost impossible to read about it without getting tangled up in how people who support the citizens of Gaza are pro hamas/anti semitic etc.

But I've heard from a few places now that Netanyahu actually encouraged Hamas so as to divide Gaza and the West Bank. I'm surprised there hasn't been more made of this as surely this means he has a lot of blood on his hands.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

Help me understand please.

@Depdawg I may have misread your post as implying that I am a Hamas supporter. If that was not your intention I apologise.

If you weren't accusing me of being a Hamas supporter, I still do not understand what you mean by the post you made though. Your post is unclear.

Not at all. I'm saying the situation is not black and white and I feel things and thoughts can be misinterpreted.
Nobody on thise site wants anything but peace.
I too apologise if I caused offence. It was not intentional.

@Depdawg thank you. I agree it is not black and white.

Having been smeared many times on these boards, I was trying to point out how often it is attempted.

I think the other parallel I see strongly is the US "war on terror" and the eradication of the Taliban post 9/11
The Taliban are back in power in Afghanistan. All the "war on terror" did really was cause a lot of deaths of soldiers and civilians as well as the Taliban. It didn't eradicate them. And the US has supported the Afghan mujihideen against soviet forces in the 80s and 90s thus enabling the taliban, similar to the stories about Netanyahu and Hamas.

So I can't see how Netanyahu's strategy of "Eradicate Hamas" is going to work?

Of course Hamas and Netanyahoo should go but more fundamental is the Israeli constitution which allocates a proportion of Knesset seats to ultra-orthodox parties and effectively makes progressive centrist or left of centre governments less likely. Also Israeli voters tend to choose the Right because they think the Left will be soft on the Palestinians but that choice tends to shut out the possibility of compromise. And the immigration from the former Soviet states has bolstered the intransigence of the Right because of the perceived need for more cheap land. It's also quite clear that Hamas and the PLA are corrupt.

It’s a case of two things can be true: Netanyahu has been a complete disaster who spent much of his career lining his own pockets and clinging on, he took his eye off the ball and Israel’s defences were breached, he is utterly corrupt. But a corrupt politician doesn’t justify the barbaric actions of Hamas. Bibi could dance naked through the streets of Gaza City singing Hatikvah and it wouldn’t justify what Hamas did. If Israel has 1 corrupt politician, Hamas has 100.

This is interesting - I don't know how they Israeli voting system works. Why are seats allocated to ultra-orthodox parties? Is there not full separation of state and religion in Israel?

I don't think Netanyahu's actions justify Hamas. I think he may have created the conditions that made it possible for Hamas to do what they did, by seeking his own ends.
Someone upthread said "my enemies enemy is my friend" but I think its more along the lines of "lie down with dogs, get fleas". He shouldn't have done anything to allow a terrorist group to flourish, and now the Israelis and the Palestinians are suffering the consequences

Divid and rule is fairly basic tactic used by conquerors over the conquered. The British had tremendously success with it over the immensely more populous Indian Subcontinent/The Raj.
The Isreali far right and Taliban types in the cabinet desperately needed Hamas, so they'd never have to sit down to "serious" negotiations about a 2-state solution.

As far a I know it uses Proportional Representation and no one automatically gets seats although (like here) certain parties are more popular in certain areas with certain people.

There is no formal separation of state and religion in Israel. It recognises a blend of religious and civil law (although I know it's been a bit contentious recently)

Tens of thousands of Palestinians dead,mainly children? Reported by Hamas, who have falsified evidence in the past, so may not be accurate
**
Israeli women raped and murdered? Reported by eyewitnesses, have falsified evidence in the past, so may not be accurate

i haven’t seen any legitimate news-sources saying either of those things is inaccurate. Hamas committed a horrendous attack on ordinary Israeli civilians and Israeli has responded with a brutal campaign killing thousands of ordinary Palestinian’s.

I know. But I have seen commentators say the reports of the Palestinian deathtoll are not reliable because the figures come from Hamas.

Both sides are spreading misinformation and denying stuff, it's so hard to pick through

BBC did a very balanced piece on it

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67206277.amp

Various news outlets have explained why the figures are, generally speaking, regarded as reliable and that they have generally corresponded with independent figures compiled after the fact.

That said, I do not think it is necessary to even trust in them - if you simply look at the insane level of destruction in Gaza you would have to engage in quite some mental contortions to convince yourself that it could be anything other than a total massacre. Humans, as a general rule, tend not to fare too well when buildings collapse on top of them - and when thousands of buildings are being bombed into oblivion in an extremely densely populated area, utter carnage is essentially inevitable.

I think it depends. In terms of the overall death toll it’s probably not far off. There is not the same kind of scientific, forensic process that is going on in Israel but as an estimate it’s probably reasonably accurate.

Where you need to treat with a pinch of salt is the death tolls ascribed to specific events, the distinction between civilians vs combatants (combatants out of uniform are counted as civilians) and children (anyone under 19) vs adults which are often very misleading. By design I would add - the classification is not done by accident.

For example, if an 18.5 year old terrorist changes into civilian clothing, attacks an IDF soldier, and is killed, they count in the official death toll as 1 civilian child, which is misleading in terms of that’s not what you’d imagine is meant by civilian or child.

If Israel targets a weapons cache in a residential building containing say 10 terrorists, some under 19, and wearing ordinary clothes, it will be recorded as 10 civilians killed in a home, including children. They are deliberately trying to mislead you and pass young adult combatants off as small civilian children so you do have to be careful. But the overall death toll is probably accurate.

@cauliflowerwaterfall that's a good point.

@cauliflowerwaterfall but there is no evidence of excess male adult deaths ( or excess male deaths generally) above what would be accounted for by the IDF estimates of Hamas deaths. An no reputable agencies are actually querying the Palestinian estimated (although we should always be cautious).

@SirBobblysock it's not very specific. I saw on itv news (I think it was) that one in three are combatants.

Commentators are but generally the line is that death tolls given in previous conflicts correspond with investigations after the conflict.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/

That is an excellent piece by the BBC but they are pointing to social media - which isn’t a good source of news. I’d question any video I’d see on social media - they could be videos from previous conflicts, other conflicts around the world. Obviously sometimes legitimate new sources do get it wrong but they are generally the best source of news.

Who is considered a “child”?
Based on the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, a child means every human being below the age of 18.
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

Some posters on here are very keen on misinformation

Even if you take the Palestinian death toll with a pinch of salt the fact remains that Israel are using indiscriminate weapons in crowded places and a large civilian death toll is likely to result. Now whether the Israeli authorities see the deaths as “collateral damage” or whether their ultimate goal is to reduce the number of Gazan civilians is something that is still up for debate.

Just to add that the list of all those killed includes

• ID number
• Full names
• Age

I haven't seen a recent one but I did see the one that was published in response to early claims that the death toll was inflated

Not many people are saying that now as even the US have accepted that the death toll is likely to be correct
I remember reading the list at the time and there were many children on there under 10 years old

Even quite a few under 3 years old and 1 years old

At this point debating it is silly because some people are determined to believe the worst. Israel is targeting legitimate military targets which are actively being used against Israeli civilians, and Hamas are deliberately using them deep in populated areas. Israel has made millions of phone calls, dropped millions of leaflets, made hundreds of house calls… I mean we have been targets of genocide quite a few times, no wannabe genocider has EVER told us they were coming or suggested we might think about escaping with our families. Meanwhile it never ceases to amaze me how there is no reaction whatsoever to Hamas using civilians as human shields or blocking them from leaving. It’s not even double standards, it’s no standards.

@cauliflowerwaterfall

@paladium you may say that but rockets are continually being fired from civilian areas into Israel still.
You can't refute that.

I attended a vigil last week where they were reading the names of all the victims out, starting with the youngest. I was there an hour and a quarter and they were still only reading out the names of the four year olds. They've killed a lot of babies, toddlers and small children.