Brits fighting in Israel

[headhurtstoomuch]

Will their British citizenship be revoked? Here is Tamara being glorified in the DM while the likes of Shamima Begum was crucified.

What's the difference between what either of them did because I can't see any and neither should be allowed back.

If she has dual citizenship then I don't see the problem tbh.
I do think it's weird how dailymail are glorifying it, but that's just dailymail for you

Quite. I also suggest anybody, stupid enough to want Begum brought back, offers to house her.
See how long your lives would remain intact.

@twilightmoon3

OK putting aside the deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians by Hamas terrorists during the 7th October attacks if your metric as to who is the good guys and who is the bad guys is based upon the number of civilian deaths then surely that would make the British the bad guys during WW2 because they killed more German civilians than the Germans killed British civilians?

Nice work 👏

@twilightmoon3

"As James O'Brien said on his show this morning no one can honestly say that concern for civilian casualties is a thing anymore."

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Well you could argue that the Israelis dropping leaflets across Gaza requesting civilians to move south is a concern to reduce Gazan civilians - whether it is successful or feasible or realistic is of course another question.

However I am sure that if Hamas dropped leaflets across the music festival and Israeli villages ahead of their attacks and warning civilians to move out then the Israeli civilian deaths would have been much less.

The horrors of mass civilian deaths in WW2 ending with the atom bomb and the fire bombing of German cities which shocked even Churchill with their ferocity was why post war the rules of war were updated to make indiscrimate bombing of civilian targets a war crime and rightly so. If my crude metrics are an indication of what might be necessary then the question is if that's what it takes to destroy Hamas then is that something you, reluctantly no doubt, support - which is the potential total destruction of Gaza and huge numbers of civilian deaths ? Or is there a more long term clinical way to take out the Hamas leadership and finances and kill the snake without totally destroying the Gazan population and lands which would spare thousands of innocent lives ?

There is no equivalence one is a barbaric islamist terrorist organisation another is a western backed state entity over who we have influence and agency.

Or is there a more long term clinical way to take out the Hamas leadership and finances and kill the snake without totally destroying the Gazan population and lands which would spare thousands of innocent lives ?

I'd love to know more about this, since it hasn't been worked out in decades... could you tell us what the way forward is? Because I think both Israel and Gaza are fucked either way, due to the 11 terrorist organisations in Gaza, the largest of which is Hamas with membership up to 30,000, who want to kill all jews and don't care about their own people. Please, tell us what the answer is. I don't like what's happening now or has happened in the past. So what is the solution that means no Israel civilians are at risk of more of October 7th, and Palestinian civilians don't get confined and bombed on?

@twilightmoon3

"Or is there a more long term clinical way to take out the Hamas leadership and finances and kill the snake without totally destroying the Gazan population and lands which would spare thousands of innocent lives ?"

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And your suggestion to achieve this would be?

Well then Mossad don't seem to have the superpowers that we though they did. With US help they could do targeted assasinations in Qatar,Turkey or wherever they are hiding. Like with Munich they will get them in the end. Put huge resources into killing the leadership , their money so that they can't move or breathe. I don't know I'm no expert - but stop the killing now - enough have died for vengence to have been served. From now on from where I'm standing it looks like collective punishment of a whole population with huge collateral damage that wil only serve ultimately in damaging any long term security Israel may have. This barbaric response will just be incubating Hamas 2.0 and emboldening their enemies in the Arab world and beyond.

Way back when when secular groups like the PFLP were in the ascendency there was still some sort of dialogue to be had however abrupt that didn't involve the Quran. One of their leaders the noted Palestinian writer Ghassan Kanafani gave a insight into the militant mind. Much blood has been shed since then and a destructive nihilism has set in. I remain convinced more violence isn't the answer it rarely is,and that Netanhayu and his ilk must go as must the Hamas leadership - both feed off each other. There has to be carrot and stick and probably going back to 67 borders and an end to the illegal occupation with compensation for those proving they had lost land to settlers would be the start of that process.

@twilightmoon3

Well then Mossad don't seem to have the superpowers that we though they did. With US help they could do targeted assasinations in Qatar,Turkey or wherever they are hiding. Like with Munich they will get them in the end. Put huge resources into killing the leadership , their money so that they can't move or breathe. I don't know I'm no expert - but stop the killing now - enough have died for vengence to have been served. From now on from where I'm standing it looks like collective punishment of a whole population with huge collateral damage that wil only serve ultimately in damaging any long term security Israel may have. This barbaric response will just be incubating Hamas 2.0 and emboldening their enemies in the Arab world and beyond.

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You are 100% correct that the actions of the Israelis will indeed create Hamas 2.0 which will most likely be even more extreme and which will further harm Israel's long term security.

But the assassination of Hamas leaders in countries that are currently friendly to the West will make matters worse (as well as being illegal) - see assassination of Jamal Khashoggi in Turkey.

The Hamas leadership will simply be replaced with people more extreme and bent on vengeance.Hamas is already a prescribed terrorist organisation so that it already faces financial restrictions so that won't work either.

The point is that everyone agrees that the civilian casualties on both sides are horrendous. Most rational people (or outsider observers) see that a two state solution is the only rational outcome and that the Israeli settlements in the West Bank should never have happened.

But right now you have two sides that are never going to reach a peace deal and meanwhile the civilian death toll ticks ever higher. It's a bit like telling the Ukrainians they need to agree a peace deal with the Russians or telling the Russians that they to withdraw from Ukraine, it's not going to happen.

Tragically it looks like the only way this is going to end is "last man standing ".

@1dayatatime hope its OK to join the convo

I did read that when the truce ended the US warned Israel to avoid further mass casualties
There was a specific statement made along the lines of Israel has one of the best militaries in the world and can therefore reduce casualties

Il see if i can find it word to word
Although from what I can see since the truce ended this advice has largely been ignored and 'last man standing' seems more the applied strategy

The James O'Brien clip I mentioned upthread well worth a listen and the inspiration for that fag packet metric. He may well suffer for his honesty. "It's a massacre".

Found it
This was from Blinken

Israel has one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world," he said.
"It is capable of neutralising the threat posed by Hamas while minimising harm to innocent men, women and children," he added.
"It has an obligation to do so,"

and that's why when I see posters saying thing like Israel doesn't have a choice but to kill all the people they are right now aswell as destroying most of the infrastructure, I don't buy it

Israel is more than capable of taking a surgical approach if they wanted to aswell as other steps to minimise and alleviate civilian suffering. But it does seem the approach right now is mass destruction. Israel doesn't have months left in this war as people may think and they know it. It will come to a point where the US will really struggle to continue defending the civilian death toll and the pressure from other countries will mount. Biden is also facing a huge amount of internal pressure from within the Democrats too.

Above is my own opinion

and that's why when I see posters saying thing like Israel doesn't have a choice but to kill all the people they are right now as well as destroying most of the infrastructure, I don't buy it

Have people actually said this? No. Most posters are saying all the options are awful and Hamas and other terrorists are amongst civilians, making it difficult. The Iraq war also resulted in thousands of civilian deaths.

Israel is more than capable of taking a surgical approach

What makes you so certain? and what would that look like. How does their approach differ if they are taking a surgical approach? Can you explain this?

@Iwantcakeeveryday maybe not so much on this thread but I have seen on many others and especially at the start of the war. Whenever anyone would mention that civilian casualties are really high the standard response would be 'well what else can Israel do' or 'Israel doesn't have a choice'

In regards to the second statement if the US themselves are saying that Israel can minimise casualties and have an obligation to do so then ofcourse they can. This narrative has been repeated not only by the Arab states but also by other allies like France.
For example many of the bombs used in civilian areas are those that inflict mass destruction. They definitely could replace with those that are used for targets. Just one example. I read this article that another poster posted a few days ago on a different thread that explains a different approach

Keep in mind it was written at the start of the war so much of what it warns about with the current approach has already played out

I don't necessarily agree with everything but it's definitely a better alternative than what we are seeing now

https://www.vox.com/2023/10/20/23919946/israel-hamas-war-gaza-palestine-ground-invasion-strategy

@Parkingt111

"@1dayatatime hope its OK to join the convo"

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Good to have you on the thread and from our previous discussions you know that although we have not always agreed, I have always respected your posts.

In an emotionally charged topic such as this with entrenched views it's good to have your much needed logical and calm posts.

Thanks for this, interesting. Most of that is about long term solutions and possible political change and leadership change in Israel, and a counter terrorism approach. In the immediate future, this change would still result in a lot of civilian casualties:
A regime change operation, one that sends IDF tanks into the urban core of places like Gaza City in the north, would inherently threaten civilians in the densest parts of the Strip, far more than the current bombing offensive. Though Israel has warned residents of the northern Gaza Strip to leave, this is exceptionally difficult to accomplish in practice..... So long as there are large numbers of Palestinians where Israel wants to invade, there is virtually no way for it to fight without massive civilian casualties.

@Parkingt111

That is a good article.

I particularly agree with the view that the West Bank under the PLA needs to be an economic success story in order to provide a more attractive alternative to life under Hamas. But it is important that it becomes an economic success story through support from the Gulf States, Egypt and Jordan otherwise it will simply be seen as a Western quisling state.

As for Gaza firstly any long term or even medium term occupation by Israel is an out and out bad idea . It will create continued loss of life on all sides. Create further support for Hamas and provide no long term solution. So what's the alternative- it needs some form of peace keeping force that doesn't just become the next Hamas target. Egypt and Jordan understandably want nothing to do with Gaza having had their hands burnt before.

As a random suggestion perhaps Turkey could be persuaded to put troops on the ground there - Erdogan has been a transparent supporter of the Palestinians (so couldn't be labelled as a quisling) and the Turkish military is certainly big enough and strong enough to do the job.

Lastly the two state solution is the only way forward along with the removal of Israeli settlements on the West Bank. The PLA perhaps under some strict Egyptian/ Jordanian guidance has to be seen to work otherwise ordinary Palestinians will continue to move towards Hamas.

Sadly this topic is dominated on both sides by a shouting match of Israel good or Israel bad which simply hardens views and makes a long lasting solution harder and the "last man standing " option more likely.

@Iwantcakeeveryday yes that's true
As I said I don't agree with everything in there. What has been very notable to see right now is that the most pressure to reduce civilian casualties is coming from non other than the US. Israel's greatest and most powerful ally. Bernie Sanders went as far as saying today that asking Israel to ask nicely is not working and maybe its time to use the leverage we have which is stopping the blank cheque

Now whilst I am aware that some of this is just political tactics, the overwhelming statements we are seeing on an almost daily basis signals to me that this isn't just political but rather real concerns
And concerns from states that are not friendly with Israel can easily be dismissed. Concerns from the US, for me is a big red flag that things are alot worse than we know

@1dayatatime I agree with all of that. I have said from the start thar once this is over the Arab countries need to play a bigger role in moving forward with a successful two state solution

In terms of Turkish troops, I think Israel won't take to that kindly but rather view it as a threat. Turkey has been very outspoken with their support not only for Palestinians but also for Hamas. Erdogan is a huge critic of Israel. I think it would have to be someone slightly more neutral

Interesting article and some good views of how to move forwards.
Nice to read posts on this thread with some actual meaning and how things might possibly change to benefit both Israeli's and the Palestinians, even if everyone doesn't agree totally with each other.

@Bumble6 it certainly won't be easy to achieve, and there will be many obstacles but I think this is the only long term option or the cycle of violence will simply continue.
As PP have said there are no easy answers but there has to be something better than what we are seeing now