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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Brits fighting in Israel

354 replies

headhurtstoomuch · 03/12/2023 01:16

Will their British citizenship be revoked? Here is Tamara being glorified in the DM while the likes of Shamima Begum was crucified.

What's the difference between what either of them did because I can't see any and neither should be allowed back.

Brits fighting in Israel
OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
upinaballoon · 04/12/2023 19:05

HobnobsChoice · 03/12/2023 01:40

They have joint British Israeli citizenship is the simple answer.
Yamara has lived in Israel since 2008 and now is doing her mandatory IDF conscription. She didn't run away to join a terrorist group but is drafted into the army of her homeland. It's very different to a British person with no Syrian citizenship to join a terrorist organisation.

Sorry if this has already been asked by now, but are all women and all men In Israel automatically called up to do what I would call National Service? Are there loads of exceptions?

1dayatatime · 04/12/2023 19:52

@Parkingt111

"In terms of Turkish troops, I think Israel won't take to that kindly but rather view it as a threat. Turkey has been very outspoken with their support not only for Palestinians but also for Hamas. Erdogan is a huge critic of Israel. I think it would have to be someone slightly more neutral"

+++

Hmmm - I see what you mean but the trouble is that anyone "slightly more neutral" would would be seen as "slightly more Israeli biased" plus the country needs to have the military power to actually perform a peacekeeping role (Eg Luxembourg wouldn't be much use).

Also there is a distinct shortage of countries wanting to volunteer for such a role - most of the Arab countries want to stay clear of Gaza and the Palestinian issue. You could try someone even more random like China?

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 19:54

Sorry if it's been done and I am not a member but he has only been in Gaza two days and he was the same age of my son :(

Brits fighting in Israel
Parkingt111 · 04/12/2023 20:20

@1dayatatime Just as we speak the white house have made this statement to reporters

"Too many innocent civilians have died in Gaza," White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan has said.
The US official, who has been speaking to reporters, says the White House was having daily conversations with Israel on protecting civilians in Gaza.

I am finding these repeated daily statements from the US quite alarming. Only because it is coming from the US
On the one hand its hypocritical as they are supplying Israel with the ammunition aswell as making it clear at the start of the war that they have the US's full support.
They also casted doubts on Hamas's death figures initially and then did a total turn around by saying they think the figures are actually much higher than reported.
There's probably alot happening in the background that we are not aware of.

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 20:31

@Parkingt111 so what are you suggesting?

Parkingt111 · 04/12/2023 20:44

@stomachameleon I don't know exactly what to make of it to be honest. But the fact that these statements are being made repeatedly almost daily to the public and not behind closed doors, is not something that should be taken lightly.

This normally happens when it's not worked behind closed doors and every effort to do so has been covered.

1dayatatime · 04/12/2023 20:45

@Parkingt111

I think the US concern on the number of civilian deaths in Gaza is related to the recent increase in Houthi attacks on shipping in the Red Sea.

The US is now very worried about the conflict spreading / widening / demonstrations/ causing destabilisation in the region fuelled by anger amongst ordinary citizens on the rising number and graphic reporting of civilian deaths in Gaza.

For example you could have citizens in Saudi, Jordan, Gulf states, Egypt etc protesting that their governments are not strong enough in their response to Israeli actions and risking a rise in and an overthrow by a more extreme Hamas type organisation.

1dayatatime · 04/12/2023 20:49

@headhurtstoomuch

Sorry OP for going off topic and de railing the original question of your thread.

I think this recent and strong condemnation by the US of civilian deaths in Gaza is significant.

Parkingt111 · 04/12/2023 20:51

@1dayatatime
I think you are right there. Its what Macron said on the weekend too

“The right response against a terrorist group is not to eliminate an entire territory or to bomb the entirety of civilian capabilities.“There is no lasting security for Israel in the region if its security comes at the cost of Palestinian lives and therefore the resentment of all public opinion in the region.”

Jordan I can see with its public sentiment turning very openly against Israel. Saudi I think won't go further than condemning.
Likewise with Egypt

Parkingt111 · 04/12/2023 20:56

The Yemeni houthis don't look like they are going to back down soon, not least until the war is over.

Pennina · 04/12/2023 21:48

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 19:54

Sorry if it's been done and I am not a member but he has only been in Gaza two days and he was the same age of my son :(

I know the family. Just devastating.

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 21:48

@Parkingt111 sent you a message.

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 21:49

@Pennina I am so sorry.

EllaDisenchanted · 04/12/2023 21:56

upinaballoon · 04/12/2023 19:05

Sorry if this has already been asked by now, but are all women and all men In Israel automatically called up to do what I would call National Service? Are there loads of exceptions?

Show quote history

Yes, they are automatically callled up. There are quite a lot of exemptions, including religious exemptions and special needs exemptions. There is alternative service called sherut leumi (national service) originally set up for orthodox girls, but has been expanded, e.g. Conscientious objectors can do sherut leumi. Sherut leumi is volunteer work, lots work in schools, special needs settings etc. army service does not automatically mean combat, I think if anything it is predominantly not combat (am working from memory not sources, so please correct me if I’m wrong). Friend of mine was an electrician in the army, came out with most of his electrician qualification done. lots learn skills and get qualifications, and network through their service.
There is also an IDF initiative, called Special in Uniform, to meaningfully integrate people with disabilities or special needs into the army, if they want to enlist.

EllaDisenchanted · 04/12/2023 22:00

@Pennina @stomachameleon יהי זכרו ברוך 😞

upinaballoon · 04/12/2023 22:40

EllaDisenchanted · 04/12/2023 21:56

Yes, they are automatically callled up. There are quite a lot of exemptions, including religious exemptions and special needs exemptions. There is alternative service called sherut leumi (national service) originally set up for orthodox girls, but has been expanded, e.g. Conscientious objectors can do sherut leumi. Sherut leumi is volunteer work, lots work in schools, special needs settings etc. army service does not automatically mean combat, I think if anything it is predominantly not combat (am working from memory not sources, so please correct me if I’m wrong). Friend of mine was an electrician in the army, came out with most of his electrician qualification done. lots learn skills and get qualifications, and network through their service.
There is also an IDF initiative, called Special in Uniform, to meaningfully integrate people with disabilities or special needs into the army, if they want to enlist.

Show quote history

Thank you for answering. I can't correct you as I don't know enough about it! Yes, armies need a lot of people to know the front-line fighting jobs but they need a lot of back-up work, too. Somewhere earlier in this thread a poster has listed the countries which still have 'national service'. A son of a friend did a civilian-type national service several years ago now, in a European country. I understand the point about services training standing a person in good stead for life afterwards, with a trade, supposing that there is an 'after' their national service, which there won't be for all of them.

EasterIssland · 04/12/2023 22:43

@EllaDisenchanted hope you don’t mind asking. Can anyone be called into this war to defend Israel? When the war started I read someone from the series Fauda had died and also that the main character has joined the army to support in this war. I was wondering is this voluntary as they’ve done the military service or can any citizen be called ? Or only if they’re in the reservist list? (Which I take is what you were mentioning about anyone that does f have any exceptions?)

just made me think I’m not sure whether I’d want a British / Spanish (where I’m from) actor to defend me if they only have done the service

EllaDisenchanted · 05/12/2023 06:59

@EasterIssland not an expert and I think it’s complex but I’ll put what I know and anyone else can correct me if I’m wrong.
following your army service, you get assigned to a reserve unit. Most years I think that just means they have to do training, and depending on their role in the army, that frequency will change. I think but am not sure that this is voluntary in normal times.
There are quite a lot of exemptions; eg pregnant women/ women after their first child, fathers of a certain number of children, health reasons etc. Depending on the unit , reserve duty finishes starting from 40.
reservists are civilians, who keep up their training, but in emergency times/ war, some can be mandatorily drafted.
the reserves are a mixture; depending on their role in the army, some of them are very experienced and senior, and and have been with their unit for years, so they are expert and cohesive and bring experience to their roles. Others are not. After October 7th some people were drafted back in (specific skills, e.g someone I know is an aircraft engineer, so he was drafted back in to the airforce support), and other people volunteered.

EllaDisenchanted · 05/12/2023 07:09

@upinaballoon just to add, I don’t believe soldiers are forced into combat units. I think if someone did not want to be in combat, they would test out as incompatible, and be placed elsewhere. There’s a selection process to go through before they are placed in different units, aiming to match skills and interests.
An unwilling combat soldier would be a liability.

EasterIssland · 05/12/2023 07:12

Thanks @EllaDisenchanted for the reply and explanation

Goodornot · 05/12/2023 07:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Pennina · 05/12/2023 08:18

EllaDisenchanted · 05/12/2023 07:09

@upinaballoon just to add, I don’t believe soldiers are forced into combat units. I think if someone did not want to be in combat, they would test out as incompatible, and be placed elsewhere. There’s a selection process to go through before they are placed in different units, aiming to match skills and interests.
An unwilling combat soldier would be a liability.

That is correct Ella.

Alohapotato · 05/12/2023 08:45

Parkingt111 · 04/12/2023 15:46

Found it
This was from Blinken

Israel has one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world," he said.
"It is capable of neutralising the threat posed by Hamas while minimising harm to innocent men, women and children," he added.
"It has an obligation to do so,"

and that's why when I see posters saying thing like Israel doesn't have a choice but to kill all the people they are right now aswell as destroying most of the infrastructure, I don't buy it

Israel is more than capable of taking a surgical approach if they wanted to aswell as other steps to minimise and alleviate civilian suffering. But it does seem the approach right now is mass destruction. Israel doesn't have months left in this war as people may think and they know it. It will come to a point where the US will really struggle to continue defending the civilian death toll and the pressure from other countries will mount. Biden is also facing a huge amount of internal pressure from within the Democrats too.

How they will do this if Hamas are hiding between normal civilians? Don't forget most of the civilians support Hamas and their atrocities so they will be helping Hamas to hide in hospitals etc. ( and if they don't support them they will be too afraid to talk badly about them)

EasterIssland · 05/12/2023 08:50

Alohapotato · 05/12/2023 08:45

How they will do this if Hamas are hiding between normal civilians? Don't forget most of the civilians support Hamas and their atrocities so they will be helping Hamas to hide in hospitals etc. ( and if they don't support them they will be too afraid to talk badly about them)

Show quote history

Do you have proof of “most civilians support Hamas”? Somewhere to support this idea??

Alohapotato · 05/12/2023 08:55

EasterIssland · 04/12/2023 22:43

@EllaDisenchanted hope you don’t mind asking. Can anyone be called into this war to defend Israel? When the war started I read someone from the series Fauda had died and also that the main character has joined the army to support in this war. I was wondering is this voluntary as they’ve done the military service or can any citizen be called ? Or only if they’re in the reservist list? (Which I take is what you were mentioning about anyone that does f have any exceptions?)

just made me think I’m not sure whether I’d want a British / Spanish (where I’m from) actor to defend me if they only have done the service

As far as I know the fauda actor worked several years in the army