Documenting the horror that is Hamas

[Brumbies]

vm.tiktok.com/ZGedgv8DA/

Have we moved now from Hamas just being "bad" people to them saving lives?

Wow

On a thread about documenting terrorist atrocities

Wow again

I was trying not to go there but yes hog

It is an interesting way to think:

Hamas kidnapping and shooting people

Hamas very helpful they got treatment for the people the people they just shot

Psychology of this way to view the video and what happened is fascinating to me. It leaves so many of the known facts about why Hamas needed to try to keep hostages alive and also be viewed as much as possible as treatment them well.

Seriously there Is research and probably a book in this about this way of thinking worth writing.

1. Israel has alleged UNWRA as corrupt many times, with no real evidence ever unearthed. The true fact of Hamas looting the odd warehouse or aid truck isn’t siphoning off aid funds nor is it evidence of UNWRA being corrupt, that’s victim blaming. Much like it would be victim blaming to allege Shin Bet is corrupted and has Hamas in it because, true fact, they knew about the Oct 7th attacks when they were being planned and never let their senior leadership aware.

2. None of the Hamas “budget” you reference is aid money, it is financed by off shore illegal activity. https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2023/11/20/inside-hamass-sprawling-financial-empire

3. UNWRA in collaboration with Israel do complete security background checks on employees to ensure none are Hamas operatives. UNWRA hire only those Israeli Intelligence says they can hire. If Hamas is being hired, then that would indicate Israeli intelligence would be at fault/corrupted moreso than UNWRA.

4. Hamas does not run all government functions in Gaza. The Palestinian Authority, which controlled Gaza before Hamas overran the area in 2007, retains power over health and education services in Gaza, even though it's based in the occupied West Bank. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-death-toll-records-1.7010255

It’s not implausible that UNWRA isn’t an arm of Hamas at all. Smearing them with baseless claims doesn’t make it so.

That’s not using a hospital as a base of operations. Under international law, Hamas had to provide adequate medical care for any hostages/POWs they have taken prisoner. This means taking them to a hospital for urgent medical care. The hospital wasn’t use for anything beyond securing the hostages medical care, that isn’t a war crime. That is the opposite of a war crime, which would have been denying them medical care.

Should I ask MNHQ to change the name of this thread to Defending Hamas?

Hen's comment on Twitter not mine. He does get a bit carried away with his comments about individual incidents I agree. I think maybe he forgets that not everyone is thinking of these individual incidents as part of a bigger picture regarding things that Hamas has done like himself. He is very Pro Israel no matter what and not good about explaining things or his argument in Tweets because of this. His comments in Tweets do jump about a bit don't they.

Hamas didn’t do anything but not commit another war crime by getting these hostages urgent medical care. That’s not laudable, that is the bare minimum.

Using hospitals to do anything with hostages is not allowed and puts hospital at risk?
That’s not true. You are required under international law to provide medical care for any/all prisoners you have whether a civilian hostage or a POW. This can absolutely be done by taking them to a hospital within your territory. The presence of prisoners being treated within a hospital is also not an exception to the protection hospitals enjoy from enemy military attacks because accessing medical care for prisoners is not a military activity.

Yeah I'm sure they did that out of the good of their murdering raping thearts. Nothing to do with hostages not being useful as bargaining chips if they're dead. And I'm sure the reason they were injured in thr first place in an innocent one, not like these lovely compassionate terrorists shot them or anything.

If we are going to document the atrocities done by Hamas, surely we need to follow the Geneva Convention on what is and is not a war crime?

Keeping civilians out of Hamas infrastructure (tunnels) not a war crime, exactly what you are supposed to do.

Getting wounded hostages/POWs priority medical care in a hospital when necessary, also not a war crime, but the bare minimum you should do.

Taking civilian hostages, definitely a war crime.

Taking POWs, not a war crime.

Indiscriminate massacring of civilians, definitely a war crime.

UNWRA in collaboration with Israel do complete security background checks on employees to ensure none are Hamas operatives. UNWRA hire only those Israeli Intelligence says they can hire. If Hamas is being hired, then that would indicate Israeli intelligence would be at fault/corrupted moreso than UNWRA.

Not according to this:
"It is difficult to comprehend why, as part of its declared policy, UNRWA does not vet candidates or check their background, in coordination with the Israeli or other authorities, prior to their employment in the Agency, in contrast with the practices of other international governmental organizations. This policy enables workers to exploit their workplace for terrorist purposes, threatening Palestinians and Israelis alike, under the guise of international humanitarian activity."
https://reliefweb.int/report/israel/opt-response-israel-unrwa-commissioner-general-report-a58557

Hamas does not run all government functions in Gaza. The Palestinian Authority, which controlled Gaza before Hamas overran the area in 2007, retains power over health and education services in Gaza, even though it's based in the occupied West Bank.

Yet your own link also refers to the Hamas-run health ministry ("The Gaza-based Ministry of Health — an agency in the Hamas-controlled government —") and specifies that overall the health and education ministry are "The ministry is a mix of recent Hamas hires and older civil servants affiliated with the secular nationalist Fatah party"

None of the Hamas “budget” you reference is aid money, it is financed by off shore illegal activity

I wasn't claiming that the aid budgets were being openly or directly paid to Hamas - clearly that wouldn't wash - but Gaza is far from unique in terms of aid money filtering through to organisational leadership in corrupt countries as part of their illegal activities.

The true fact of Hamas looting the odd warehouse or aid truck isn’t siphoning off aid funds nor is it evidence of UNWRA being corrupt, that’s victim blaming

It would have been more honest if the UNWRA had not deleted their tweet then.

Overall, what you are doing is deliberately minimising the role of Hamas within Gaza. As they're the ruling party of Gaza and have the power of life and death over civilians there, I find the picture you're attempting to paint of this ghost-like organisation with little power or impact, highly disingenious, particularly on this thread.

Hamas didn’t do anything “good” they did the bare minimum required by law.

At least the "Do people support Hamas" thread is suitably named when ever it gets invaded by apologists 😂

Seriously at one point posters were so busy invading it and making apologies for Hamas. Whenever I felt a bit off I would go read that and see what fools they were making of themselves posting that stuff on a thread with that title. I didn't even disturb them but let them get on with it. Very amusing and the best title so far for a thread, it can be taken both ways.

Hamas is well known of course for not committing crimes especially war crimes

Not sure what the argument is really because they have not let some of the hostages get treatment or medication on occasion and why anyone is bothered to make the argument in the first place. It seems to just be a way of homing in on a comment made by the person tweeting and not about the rest content of the video. This is an interesting tactic to stop people talking about the content of the video perhaps???

To somewhat clunkily bring the thread back round to the topic at hand, there is now one less senior Hamas leader to commit atrocities in the world. Saleh el-Arouri, founding commander of the Izz-ad Din Al-Qassam brigades, has been killed in Beirut by a drone strike according to Al-Arabiya.

Tell that to the poster I was responding to. Or any of the others on this board over the past few months who like to bleat about how well the terrorist scum treated the people they kidnapped from their homes.

Although if Hamas gave half a shit about international law they wouldn't have taken hostages in the first place.

Saleh el-Arouri, founding commander of the Izz-ad Din Al-Qassam brigades, has been killed in Beirut by a drone strike according to Al-Arabiya

Does this mean we now have to put up with the social media version of a condolence card going around by the usual suspects?

*First try to say he was a resistance fighter

*Admit he wasn't very nice. Then point at some nasty Israel or western politician and say but he is worse, the same etc

*Admit he was not that nice but say something like Israel broke international law killing him or whatever

Does this mean we now have to put up with the social media version of a condolence card going around by the usual suspects?

Add to that accusations of Israel stoking tensions in the region, by the same people who were previously demanding why they couldn't just do surgical strikes.

@SomeCatFromJapan one down....

@SomeCatFromJapan

On background checks, you have linked to a 2003 report, which is twenty years out of date. Please reference this document which states there is a suitability screening for new personnel, contractors and payees prior to offer of a job/contract. In addition, UNWRA runs six-monthly checks against UN lists of known terrorists not just Hamas but also ISIS and Al Qaida the entire time they are employed by UNWRA. In addition, staff lists are sent to Israel and other states with Israeli/Palestinian ID to be further screened for any new intelligence of whether they are affiliated with Hamas or any terrorist organisation. This has been in place at least since 2013 and it was Israeli COGAT information that led to an UNWRA employee being sacked in 2017 after deciding to run for election in Hamas. https://www.unrwa.org/sites/default/files/content/resources/unrwaneutrality_factsheet_2018_final_eng.pdf

my link stated *The Palestinian Authority, which controlled Gaza before Hamas overran the area in 2007, retains power over health and education services in Gaza, even though it's based in the occupied West Bank. *the other bits refer to the fact that Hamas controls the rest of the government and that some of the employees in health and education are members of Hamas, even though they do not control those organisations.

I know you were and are claiming that aid money gets siphoned off by corrupt UNWRA officials to Hamas. There is zero evidence of this despite regular forensic audits. The latest one was just last month.
https://www.dw.com/en/eu-hamas-did-not-siphon-off-development-aid/a-67525454
”There are no indications that Hamas — deemed a terrorist organization by the EU, the US and others — misappropriated EU funds.
European Commissioner for Neighborhood and Enlargement Oliver Varhelyi said that the audit of this year's payments had not revealed a misuse of funds and that the EU could continue cooperating with various agencies and authorities in the Palestinian territories.”

Overall, what you are doing is deliberately minimising the role of Hamas within Gaza. No, I am clarifying the role of Hamas within Gaza as the comment that “Hamas controls all government organisations in Gaza” is factually incorrect. It is not minimising to clarify.

I find the picture you're attempting to paint of this ghost-like organisation with little power or impact, highly disingenious, particularly on this thread.
That doesn’t resemble anything I have said about Hamas. Let’s not stoop to personal insults shall we?

Hamas have and do commit many crimes including war crimes, but the video of them taking two hostages into a hospital for necessary urgent medical care is not a crime. It is the bare minimum they are legally required to do for the welfare of hostages they hold prisoner.

We should not be condemning it at the very least. Save the condemnation for the crimes, not the actions that are Hamas once in awhile not compounding the war crime of taking civilian hostages by actually getting two of them life saving medical care.

It's great that that's the part if the video you focus on, not the part where they were fucking shot and kidnapped.

I’d be happy to. Hamas doing the bare minimum isn’t evidence of kindness or being good. It’s just like you don’t praise a rapist for being a good and kind man because he left you alive.

Absolutely, they committed a war crime by taking civilian hostages.

I didn’t focus on it. The poster who posted the link to the video focussed on it.

You can tell because they quoted it:
”Brother and sister Itai and Maya Regev were forced to pretend to be corpses as they were led through one of the hospitals in Gaza by Hamas militants.

Hamas did this to disguise their war crimes and use the hospital and its staff as a base for their operations."

I and everyone before me were all responding to what they focussed on. HTH

No I didn't

That was the comment of the person that tweeted the message not me. It was just copied and pasted onto the post. Hence the speech marks to symbolise this. Which is something everyone does to symbolise that it is a quote.

It is normal to quote the tweet in this way when adding a twitter link. The post in question was a link to the video. However you chose to focus on the tweet itself