Documenting the horror that is Hamas

[Brumbies]

vm.tiktok.com/ZGedgv8DA/

@Hellenika and yet they manage to launch rockets into Israel and have miles of tunnels that no civilians can access. Why not? They have underground bomb shelters.

It's almost as if you are Sympathetic to their plight.

Who is going to sell or provide Hamas ( a terrorist organisation) with an iron dome?

The wealth Hamas amassed was via illegal black market financing. They didn’t get any aid money.

It's also quite naive to state that they're not receiving any aid money. Clearly their financial stranglehold of Gaza will include significant filtering of aid money into their pockets.

The initial funding and development of the Iron Dome system was provided and undertaken by Israel.[31]

Israel also provides the batteries needed. (From 2011 they invested 1 billion)

Think it's more coproduction.

@SomeCatFromJapan

Very naive.

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-cash-to-crypto-global-finance-maze-israels-sights-2023-10-16/

Personally my main concern is the 5500+ Palestinian children alone that have been killed and the humanitarian conditions in Gaza

There are separate threads for this.

Why imply that anyone pointing out Israel’s actions against Palestinians, or how Israel has been armed and funded by the USA, must be pro-Hamas?

These responses were just reporting facts, regardless of any portioning out of blame to either Hamas or Israel.

As for moral blame, it is not only Hamas who are a disaster for their people - who are now, as a result of Israel’s actions against them, looking to Hamas even more. One could argue that Netanyahu, wanted for bribery and corruption, along with his cronies Smotrich, and Givr (who in 2007 was convicted for incitement to racism and supporting a terrorist organization), have caused harm to Israel as well as Palestinians.

I’m not sympathetic to Hamas, I am merely addressing that it is not so simplistic as Israel chooses to spend money on defending civilians but Hamas doesn’t. The devil is in the details.

Israel is a legitimate nation state receiving $3.3 billion per year in military aid plus free technology sharing and cooperation between the U.S. Military and IDF vs Hamas, a proscribed terrorist organisation that must finance itself through criminal and illegal activity and then is very restricted on what they can realistically smuggle through a land, air and sea blockade while under constant satellite and UAV surveillance. As you said, even if they chose to buy an Iron Dome/PAC-3/NASRAMS/ etc type surface to air defense battery, who would sell it to them? Especially since you know they’d use it to defend Gaza by shooting down IDF aircraft, piloted or unmanned. The answer is no one. No one would risk the wrath of the US if they sold something that would make the military power more symmetric between Israel and domestic terrorists. It would also be morally wrong to do so imho.

On the matter of bomb shelters, I am sympathetic to the plight of Palestinian civilians. Gaza is located on a sea shore of mostly sand and no bedrock. In this landscape, you can build narrow, concrete reinforced tunnels. You can do a bit of Swiss cheesing, but there isn’t enough land to build large, deep, reinforced underground bomb shelters (bunkers) for civilians without collapsing all of Gaza Strip on itself. It’s just basic engineering. So again, it is not so simple as Hamas has “chosen” not to build bomb shelters. They couldn’t even if they wanted to. And the fact they cannot, should not be used as ill conceived proof that they care less about Palestinian civilians than the IDF do.

As for why civilians cannot crowd into the smuggler tunnels used by Hamas, there isn’t room which is basic physics. Secondly, Hamas should not do this as it would violate international law as by mixing civilian objects (bomb shelters) with military targets (terrorist tunnel network), often referred to as the war crime of using human shields. It’s quite off to be criticising Hamas for following international law by not using human shields in their tunnels, not that they don’t commit war crimes, but let’s not egg them on shall we?

Or is it you are biased against UNWRA? MSF? ICRC?
All humanitarian aid funds have been sent via Israel and also audited by the US and the EU., repeatedly, and none has ever benefitted Hamas directly or indirectly.

Re: Ben-Givr/ Israel’s own governing party causing it harm.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/02/27/itamar-ben-gvir-israels-minister-of-chaos

Ben-Gvir—a man whom the former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert described as a more imminent danger to Israel than a nuclear-armed Iran

This.

Hamas, no accountability for their actions according to some mumsnet posters. Poor misunderstood chaps that they are 🥺

I do think UNWRA is probably compromised, as it happens.

@SomeCatFromJapan of course it is. And I will be glad when it is got rid of and replaced.

It is currently co-production, although 55% of all manufacturing has to be in the US.

The initial development was born from the Juniper Cobra exercises of 2005/7 in which I participated. 2007 in particular was all about simulating solutions for missile defence for Israel. From there various agreements were done where it was essentially an OSP with Israel as lead. Israel used their government owned company Rafael as prime, and then Raytheon consulted as a sub.

It is why Raytheon is their US partner for coproduction. Raytheon was part of it from the start and they were able to leverage and use all the US Patriot missile defence system tech data so it wasn’t a brand new R&D but a modification spiral, a spin off if you will. (We were giving Israel PAC-3s and Arrows anyway). That’s what was needed as with Hamas taking over Gaza and their rocket capabilities getting stronger, it had to be something that could be quickly modified and not some brand new technology.

The initial bit was funded only by Israel, some $33m of memory serves, so they could have the data rights as per usual with these sorts of cooperative agreements. The US then financed the test & eval, production, deployment and once it was field tested and proven, asserted its rights to become an equal partner and then paid for government use data rights.

We're certainly drifting from the thread topic. That seems to be a recurring theme on any thread in this section that isn't just Israel are Evil, has anyone else noticed?

That’s illegal financing. That isn’t humanitarian aid which goes from a government to Israel, and then to recognised international aid organisations like UNWRA, MSF, ICRC.

These are fake “charities” that are fronts for illegal crypto financing. How can you not see the difference?

“Why imply that anyone pointing out Israel’s actions against Palestinians, or how Israel has been armed and funded by the USA, must be pro-Hamas?

These responses were just reporting facts, regardless of any portioning out of blame to either Hamas or Israel.”

That is literally all I am doing. I’m pointing out how some catchy phrases being circulated are not really accurate representations of the situation. It’s got nothing to do with not holding Hamas accountable.

Yep

On the basis of what? It would have to be an inside job as all the money goes through Israel and is audited by the US and EU- meaning all three of these would need to think Hamas are legit to cover it up.

I'll respond once and then no more to any posts that are derailing the thread.

Israel has repeatedly accused the UNRWA of covering up Hamas' theft of aid trucks, Eylon Levy has a number of posts addressing this.

UNRWA deleted their own post in October accusing Hamas of stealing aid, btw:
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/unwra-deletes-social-media-post-accusing-hamas-of-stealing-humanitarian-supplies/

That aside, they are responsible for an annual budget well north of a billion dollars a year in Gaza and anyone suggesting that some of that money isn't funnelled to Hamas leaders is, as I've said, naive. Also most employees will be local to Gaza, which is understandable, but again to suggest that none of them are Hamas affiliates is again naive.

This is an organisation that is notoriously embedded throughout Gazan civilian society and also runs all government function in Gaza. It is utterly implausible that aid organisations on the ground operate in an untouched, non-corrupt bubble.

@SomeCatFromJapan (can't find the claps!)

I don't know if people have seen this interview already so will post it here:

"Brother and sister Itai and Maya Regev were forced to pretend to be corpses as they were led through one of the hospitals in Gaza by Hamas militants.

Hamas did this to disguise their war crimes and use the hospital and its staff as a base for their operations."

https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1741902551019102348

Day 88

Thank you, I watched this. How very brave they have been and what a horror they have lived through. It is lucky they had each other.

Hamas committed an abhorrent crime by shooting them and then taking them hostage. However, it seems clear that when Hamas took the brother and sister to the hospital to be attended to by the doctor it was to save their lives. She had been in the verge of death.

As far as I can see from this interview, the hospital in this case was being used in the way it is supposed to be used (for healing a sick or dying people).

@ScrollingLeaves you are trying to make it sound as if the malevolent Hamas has done them a service.
They had no reason shooting them.
They had no reason so kidnap them and take them to Gaza.
They are more valuable alive

It's ok to kidnap people if you are really nice

And no it's not being used for purpose. Using hospitals to do anything with hostages is not allowed and puts hospital at risk?

Well that was one take on the video I suppose

I mean at least this hospital were doing there job this time. I have no idea if it is one of the ones Hamas were using as a base or has a percentage of dodgy staff like some have been found to have. However they did treat the hostages unlike some doctors that have been reported by hostages as refusing too, so probably a different hospital.