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Conflict in the Middle East
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16
noblegiraffe · 18/11/2023 14:31

I'm trying to figure out whether the Bin Laden thing has been manufactured by people attempting to influence public perception and then making it go viral by making it it was already a thing.

I don't understand how people could genuinely read Bin Laden's letter blaming the Jews (and Jews, not Israel, to be clear) for everything and wanting Sharia law everywhere and thinking 'gosh, that's shattered my world view, I thought he was a bad guy up till now'.

ChalkWitch · 18/11/2023 14:31

backtowinter · 18/11/2023 14:26

Sadly I'm not actually surprised.

Disgusted but not surprised

Yes. I think maybe I want to be surprised because the alternative is too awful.

AllWeAreSaying · 18/11/2023 14:32

Thanks mixgoal I’ll give that a try

OP posts:
ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 18/11/2023 14:38

noblegiraffe · 18/11/2023 14:31

I'm trying to figure out whether the Bin Laden thing has been manufactured by people attempting to influence public perception and then making it go viral by making it it was already a thing.

I don't understand how people could genuinely read Bin Laden's letter blaming the Jews (and Jews, not Israel, to be clear) for everything and wanting Sharia law everywhere and thinking 'gosh, that's shattered my world view, I thought he was a bad guy up till now'.

Whether it was nudged to go viral, or whether it did go viral on its own, both options are worrying.

BeggyMitchell · 18/11/2023 14:39

noblegiraffe · 18/11/2023 14:31

I'm trying to figure out whether the Bin Laden thing has been manufactured by people attempting to influence public perception and then making it go viral by making it it was already a thing.

I don't understand how people could genuinely read Bin Laden's letter blaming the Jews (and Jews, not Israel, to be clear) for everything and wanting Sharia law everywhere and thinking 'gosh, that's shattered my world view, I thought he was a bad guy up till now'.

Like these TikTokers would last 5 minutes under Sharia law.

You'd hope they'd have the brain cells to realise that at least, if not quite grasp the insidious antisemitism but.... 🤷🏻‍♀️ ... I don't think these people have ever read a book; they seem inordinately proud to have read A Letter.

PTSDBarbiegirl · 18/11/2023 14:43

backtowinter · 18/11/2023 13:47

Every thread.

What about

It’s true though.

Cantbeardarknights · 18/11/2023 14:56

SBC is a very intelligent well educated man. He’s absolutely right

Reallifelurker · 18/11/2023 14:56

You're fucking well trying though
🙄

Totalityaddict · 18/11/2023 14:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

No they aren’t.

Totalityaddict · 18/11/2023 14:59

OuiOuiKitty · 18/11/2023 14:03

I said that there are no winners in this. Some people are the victims of antisemitism and some people are committing genocide - no winners. If there is a ceasefire it will all calm down and that is the truth. You can pretend it isn't but I really don't care.

Wasn’t there a ceasefire when Hamas murdered, tortured and raped men, women, children and babies on Oct 7th?

Reallifelurker · 18/11/2023 15:01

‘Tiktok is creating the biggest antisemitic movement since the Nazis‘

No it isn’t and here’s why I think that = not whataboutery

or

be that as it may, censorship is unlikely to be a solution = also not whataboutery

there are a number of other far more interesting ways to respond or disagree with the quote from SBC without resorting to whataboutery

Nah, I think those examples you give would still be criticised if anyone actually posted them.

MorrisZapp · 18/11/2023 15:02

Totalityaddict · 18/11/2023 14:59

Wasn’t there a ceasefire when Hamas murdered, tortured and raped men, women, children and babies on Oct 7th?

There needs to be another ceasefire, to prevent a catastrophic humanitarian crisis.

Loulou599 · 18/11/2023 15:06

I think if Hamas gave back the hostages there would be a ceasefire

AllWeAreSaying · 18/11/2023 15:07

Nah, I think those examples you give would still be criticised if anyone actually posted them.

Some criticism is fine though, right? It can be a healthy way to further the discussion, it’s not at all the same as trying to close the conversation down entirely.

OP posts:
Iwantcakeeveryday · 18/11/2023 15:07

Yes, he is right. Its scary to watch this happening

PerkingFaintly · 18/11/2023 15:15

Yes, the blue stars of David in France is a strange one - but in its way very revealing.

While politicians made comparisons with Nazi-era graffiti to "out" Jews in their homes, investigators pointed out the Stars of David were randomly distributed, with no obvious Jewish connection in the choice of buildings.
Also the message in the medium was confusing. Conceivably a blue Israeli flag, or what immediately evokes it, could be seen as a pro-Jewish sign. Surely any genuine antisemite would have found a clearer way of expressing their hate.
Having caught and questioned two Moldovan nationals in connection with the first wave of stencils, French police and intelligence services now suspect the operation may be a classic piece of Russian dezinformatsiya(disinformation).
[...]
According to Le Monde newspaper, the graffiti operation is linked to a longstanding Russian propaganda network known as Doppelgänger.
In June Le Monde wrote a series of articles about Doppelgänger, which it said used computer bots to deluge social media with fake news postings. At the time the main purpose was to undermine faith in Western policy on Ukraine.
According to Le Monde, both couples who stencilled the Star of David graffiti were accompanied by a photographer whose job was to put the images straightaway online. The newspaper says the images first appeared only on accounts linked to the Doppelgänger network.
[...]
As for the purpose of Operation Star of David, like all dezinformatsiya it seems to have been to sow confusion and anxiety. The fact that the symbol could be either pro- or anti-Israeli made it all the more interesting: that way both sides would be suspicious.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67360768

A woman walks past a building tagged with Stars of David in Paris

Star of David graffiti in Paris - the Russian connection

Around 250 blue Stars of David - similar to the one on the Israeli flag - appeared on Paris buildings.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67360768

threecupsofteaminimum · 18/11/2023 15:16

Anyone who uses TikTok as news or information source needs help.

These platforms are rotting the core of societal morality, not that it was great to start with...

Reallifelurker · 18/11/2023 15:19

Some criticism is fine though, right?
Lol

It’s not at all the same as trying to close the conversation down entirely.
How do you close an online conversation down? You can go off on tangents like this one but if loads of people want to come onto this thread and discuss the OP how do you imagine I can stop them?

Loulou599 · 18/11/2023 15:19

@PerkingFaintly
Thank you for finding an English version, yes it's quite fascinating. I can't believe the lengths they could go to to sow disinformation. I wonder if this actually works to their advantage as a technique, it must do as these kinds of operations must be very complicated and labour intensive to execute

PerkingFaintly · 18/11/2023 15:22

I've seen the Russian modus operandi described as slipping a knife into any available crack in society, and wiggling.

They may not yet have decided on specific aims regarding Israel-Palestine, but it's certainly an opportunity to wiggle the knife.

They will undoubtedly be up to similar on Tik Tok and every platform they have access to. And as PP have said, there will be plenty of other parties pulling the same shit.

Totalityaddict · 18/11/2023 15:29

MorrisZapp · 18/11/2023 15:02

There needs to be another ceasefire, to prevent a catastrophic humanitarian crisis.

I was responding to another poster who said everything would settle down if there were a ceasefire.
Oct 7th showed that is not true.

mixgoal · 18/11/2023 15:40

Totalityaddict · 18/11/2023 15:29

I was responding to another poster who said everything would settle down if there were a ceasefire.
Oct 7th showed that is not true.

The poster was blaming the rise of antisemitism on Israel and seemed to think that if there was a ceasefire, the antisemitism would stop. Which is laughable. The kind of people who grafitti Jewish schools and shout kill the Jews in the middle of a train station aren't just going to think "there's a ceasefire, I don't hate Jewish people anymore".

noblegiraffe · 18/11/2023 15:52

I think it's true to an extent that if there was a ceasefire the rise in visible antisemitism would calm down because there wouldn't be opportunities every week for antisemites to unpack their swastika signs and go for a walk through town. And there wouldn't be so many threads on MN for them to post antisemitism on.

It wouldn't cure the background level which would be there just waiting for the next outing.

Happyvalleyfan · 18/11/2023 16:11

AllWeAreSaying · 18/11/2023 12:59

This sounds like a justification of the hateful rise of antisemitism, equating ordinary Jewish people worldwide with the actions of the Israeli government. So it’s perfectly okay to target Jewish people and spread antisemitic tropes then?

You are absolutely right- Jewish people,
particularly those living out of Israel, should not be held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government.

But the acts of the Israeli government is influencing how people view the state of Israel and is an excuse for some to be anti-semitic.

But I don’t think the Israeli government really cares what Joe Public thinks of them? Only when USA voters stop supporting their actions AND influence their politicians will they care.