Why don't Hamas/Palestine surrender (and release hostages) in a losing conflict?

[sweetroastedpeanut]

Please preach me.

I greatly sympathize with the Palestinians and the innocent people attacked by Hamas. The sadness is imminent. Numerous lives lost and homes destroyed. The retaliation is getting out of proportion and bombing should stop right now.

However, I cannot make sense of why there's no one asking Hamas / Palestine to surrender to facilitate an immediate cease fire.

Why doesn't Hamas got chased away from Palestine for peace, who initiate the conflict themselves on 7 Oct (And ironically the heads of Hamas are not in Palestine taking the blow).

And why doesn't Palestine's allies (e.g. Lebanon, Iran) provides humanitarian aids and give a big welcome and provide shelter for Palestinians but fanning the flames instead?

I know many will talk about the long history of conflict and how Palestine has been suffering but I think that's not really helping in achieving an immediate cease fire here. If ceasefire is the priority, and the lives of civilians matter, then Hamas should surrender now. And Palestinians should turn the trouble makers in.

I cannot help but thinking Hamas leaders are cowards who cannot take responsibility for the mess they have created, while ducking under the bodies of civilians who die for Hamas foolishness.

Why don’t you want to share it?

Why doesn’t Israel return the innocent Gaza people ? Is easy exchange of hostages from both sides and idf and settlers can go back to Israel

We were discussing Hamas though, and you originally seemed to question why people have been saying their stated aim is to rid the world of jews. Israel does not have a similar aim and are not terrorists.

@OneHurtSpaggettio I genuinely can’t be bothered, it’s the end of a long day and I’ve limited spoons. Google/Twitter is free, if you’re curious.

arab countries won't accept refugees because that will mean palestinians will be displaced and lose even more of their country's Palestinians don't want to be refugees or lose their land. It's not just about the land but the religious mosques and temples.

hamas will never give up but that is a separate situation to the civilians

@OneHurtSpaggettio

"and to finally seize the oil and gas in Gaza, which they’ve been after for about 25 years. "

+++

Oh dear we've already had one nutjob conspiracy theorist claim that the conflict has been encouraged by arms manufacturers and now we have another conspiracy theory about oil.

Please this is an important and incredibly complex topic with a solution slipping further away and the risk of wider contagion growing every day. For that we need the grown ups in the room.

@OneHurtSpaggettio I just read that article on Quora and are we reading the same thing? It just said the obvious ' if Israelis feel threatened they will vote right wing'.... they have every right to feel threatened at the moment. That's not propaganda or disinformation that's peoples reality. They have rockets still being fired at them from two fronts.
And remember it's a coalition government so 8(?) out of 120 seats in the knesset are deemed 'far right'
People do it over here with the boat issue and that's without the massacre attached it. They vote right wing because they feel scared and frightened.
I think it's most interesting how it addresses the Middle East's general reluctance to involve themselves with Palestinians. And how they see them as a liability.
Hamas need to go.... so peace can be achievable for all. Netanyahu will go next election as will the eight... people's appetite for peace will exceed their appetite for war.

Posted on wrong thread
@1dayatatime
what we were discussing previously
Guardian just put up this update

The armed wing of Hamas says it discussed with Qatari mediators the release up to 70 women and children hostages in Gaza in exchange for a five-day Israeli ceasefire, Reuters reports.
Israel has rejected any possibility of a ceasefire until the release of all 240 of the hostages.
Abu Ubaida, spokesperson for al-Qassam brigades, said Hamas also wanted the release of 200 Palestinian children and 75 women it says have been “detained by the enemy”.

@jolaylasofia when Israel withdrew from Gaza the synagogues that weren't taken apart piece by piece where razed to the ground. Anything left was destroyed as 'Jewish'

And Arab countries won't accept them as they have done it before and suffered the consequences... check your history.

@Parkingt111 the parent in me would take that offer although the Cynic in me knows why they don't.

I understand
The best outcome for everyone would be ALL innocent held without charge or trial be released
And ALL hostages released
None of this back and forth doing multiple deals as the longer the hostages are held in Gaza decreases the chances of them coming out alive

Firstly, the other poster didn’t say that, they said that the arms trade financially benefits from war, and that politicians have personal investments in the arms trade. That is not a “conspiracy theory” and that person isn’t a “nut job”, it is a fact, which you should educate yourself on:

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/09/uk-wastes-billions-defence-firms-investors-taxpayer-weapons

Secondly, what I said is not a conspiracy theory, I posted a news article about the Iraq war and oil, which you clearly didn’t bother to read. Again, if you think that wars aren’t propagated and proliferated by financial interests then I really think you must be living under a rock.

Google “Israel Gaza BG group” and you can read all about the meetings about the oil in Gaza stretching back to the early 2000s.

This is a good summary: https://www.planetcritical.com/p/everybody-wants-gazas-gas

UN report on oil in Gaza:
https://unctad.org/news/unrealized-potential-palestinian-oil-and-gas-reserves

Please stop with the self-appointing as the arbiter of truth, and calling people nut jobs and not “grown ups” just because their posts don’t chime with your views.

Oh look, there it is - oil! But of course...

But how will it? They are frighteningly popular in Israel, largely due to persistent and consistent propaganda and disinformation.

They're not "frighteningly popular" - only around 28% have stated they'd vote for Netanyahu. Which is actually pretty unusual for a PM leading a country during a conflict, especially in its early days. Gantz' party (centre/centre right) is actually currently far more popular although he has said he won't seek to have a new PM imposed, which I suppose is democracy. So I don't hold out much hope for a more restrained government anytime soon unfortunately.

Ironic you talk about propaganda and disinformation btw.

@Parkingt111 I know they won't do this as it affects their 'worth' but at the moment I would settle for a sign of life especially for the vulnerable.

They are frighteningly popular' do you know anyone in Israel?

.

@Stomacharmeleon Oh I just checked the link and it’s completely different from what I meant to share, no idea why, sorry about that. I agree that fear is a powerful tool as people are ultimately in a vulnerable state when they’re fearful, which leaves them open to manipulation.

From what I’ve read, the influence of the far-right in this current government is palpable: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/07/israel-far-right-ultranationalist-hits-ground-running-and-ripple-effects-are-being-felt

B’Tselem have covered it extensively.

”people's appetite for peace will exceed their appetite for war.”

I hope so, but I’m concerned that fear will be harnessed more than ever off the back of all of this.

Plenty of articles available about the marine gas field and oil off the coast of Gaza strip. Reuters reported Israel agreed to drilling in June, though Hamas objected that Palestinians should receive some profit from their natural resources. Reuters also reported Israel handed out licences to BP and others on the 30th Oct this year. It's not very 'grown up' of you to not know about this and to dismiss it as irrelevant? Insulting people doesn't make facts go away, or enhance discussion at all really.

Hamas could not care less about the lives of Gaza civilians. That is why they act as they do. They use their civilians as shields, nothing else.
But the civilians do not only suffer in the war, they have been displaced and crowded in Gaza. It is described as a massive refugeee camp by respected organisations. They do not have control on their water supply or electric supply. Rely on humanitarian aid and so on and on.
For me, taking them out into another country where they have a chance to live a proper life will be the solution, but no neighbouring country is prepared to take them ( at least two million people)
So Hamas and Israel will fight each other, with both the Gazans and the Israelis living in the border used as pawns and shields, forever and ever.

For me, taking them out into another country where they have a chance to live a proper life will be the solution, but no neighbouring country is prepared to take them ( at least two million people)

Or Israel could stop their illegal occupation, their purposeful strangulation of their economy, their illegal 'arrests' and killings and leave Palestinians to thrive where they are. Surely that should be preferable to the ethnic cleansing you are suggesting? Or do you not think that Israelis have the humanity to allow that to happen?

To me, nearly a third of the population being willing to back someone who has got into bed with the far-right is “frighteningly popular”, and I would say the same was if it was true in the U.K.

As someone who is an ethnic minority, I would certainly find it frightening.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-jewish-voters-moved-significantly-rightward-in-recent-years-data-shows/amp/

If their support was growing fine, but it's not, it's declining massively! The UK also has a very different electoral system to Israel.

@OneHurtSpaggettio And yes, I agree it would seem "frightening popular" if the support was on the rise. Like Le Pen's rise in France terrifies me (with Jewish French family). Although ironically she's coming out to 'bat for the Jew's' which disgusts me because the far right in France are about as racist as they come.

@OuiOuiKitty I do not think that they will be allowed to remain in peace, equality and prosper, no. Based on what I hear is happening in the West Bank.
I have heard of issues with building permits, refusals, delays and people being evicted.
And, for a peaceful integration and prosperous life alongside each other, there has been plenty of time to take that route. More than 60 years. It is not happening though.......

I hope you’re right but every article I’ve come across seems to say that Israel is heading further to the right and all of the lefties are in the millennial and upwards age groups, and that it’s to do with shifting demographics.