Why don't Hamas/Palestine surrender (and release hostages) in a losing conflict?

[sweetroastedpeanut]

Please preach me.

I greatly sympathize with the Palestinians and the innocent people attacked by Hamas. The sadness is imminent. Numerous lives lost and homes destroyed. The retaliation is getting out of proportion and bombing should stop right now.

However, I cannot make sense of why there's no one asking Hamas / Palestine to surrender to facilitate an immediate cease fire.

Why doesn't Hamas got chased away from Palestine for peace, who initiate the conflict themselves on 7 Oct (And ironically the heads of Hamas are not in Palestine taking the blow).

And why doesn't Palestine's allies (e.g. Lebanon, Iran) provides humanitarian aids and give a big welcome and provide shelter for Palestinians but fanning the flames instead?

I know many will talk about the long history of conflict and how Palestine has been suffering but I think that's not really helping in achieving an immediate cease fire here. If ceasefire is the priority, and the lives of civilians matter, then Hamas should surrender now. And Palestinians should turn the trouble makers in.

I cannot help but thinking Hamas leaders are cowards who cannot take responsibility for the mess they have created, while ducking under the bodies of civilians who die for Hamas foolishness.

While the Gaza issue goes on Israelis continue to take over properties and land on the West Bank. So the distraction suits Isreal.

Do you really think that Israel has used billions worth of weapons in Gaza
Israel's military spending amounts to over $20bn+ a year. In terms of the weapons they've used in this conflict so far, probably not billions yet. In terms of the military spending which will come about as a result of this war, yes. And it isn't just Israel who are buying weapons remember - Hamas's weapons aren't being cobbled together from sacks of fertilizer. They're using military weapons which have also been supplied through the arms trade. And the arms trade isn't just about weapons that go bang. You also need to factor in the spending on all sorts of other related things (e.g. early warning systems).

However the billions being made aren't just about what's been spent in the last six weeks in this conflict. It's just as much about what will be spent in the future if there is a longer-drawn out conflict and the resulting tensions for years to come.

that arms makers are somehow behind the war?
"Behind the war" meaning they caused it? No.
"Behind the war" as in they have a vested interest that it doesn't get resolved peacefully too quickly? Yes.

Gaza is sitting on oil worth billions (500 if im not mistaken) so you can probably work out why the Israeli government and Biden (as well as the UK) are hellbent on this war carrying on. The fact that Palestinians have been living in a concentration camp for years ( i now refuse to call it an open air prison because that would then imply that the Palestinians are criminals and the way they are tortured on a daily basis a concentration camp is best described how these people are treated) means they've been prevented from developing their own energy fields and cant benefit from such assets.

Link?

However, I cannot make sense of why there's no one asking Hamas / Palestine to surrender to facilitate an immediate cease fire

Realistically the likely hood of them surrendering is low given their fanaticism* *

And why doesn't Palestine's allies (e.g. Lebanon, Iran) provides humanitarian aids and give a big welcome and provide shelter for Palestinians but fanning the flames instead

Because it’s not in their interests I guess? Just because they’re political allies (?) with a country doesn’t mean they feel responsible for their population.
I read somewhere (BBC news I think) that Turkey have shipped in gear to set up temporary hospitals near Gaza border with Egypt (with Egypts permission) so there’s that. Who is being allowed over the Rafah crossing currently I’m not sure but Egypt possibly plans to let people more out?

Hamas don't seem to give a shit about their civilians. For what it's worth, I don't think Israel give a shit about their hostages either.
The only way I see for real peace, sadly, is if either Palestine or Israel 'win' . Winning, for Palestine, would be Israel whipped of the map and one Palestinian state from the West Bank to Gaza.
Winning for Israel would be Palestine whipped of the map and one Israeli state including all of the West Bank to Gaza.
From what I can see that's what much of the populations of both sides actually want. Very sad.

@MissConductUS You’re more than welcome to find it yourself.

Secondly shifting Palestinians to another country just shifts the problem whereas the only long lasting answer is a true two state solution.

I agree re a two state solution. Over the decades though, this has been rejected by both sides and agreement impossible to reach. Neither side seems willing to compromise.

Absolutely. And Hamas do not want a ceasefire or peace or any kind of negotiations. Hamas' stated objective is not only to wipe Israel off the map, but to kill all Jews. That's what Iran is supporting. Iran is supporting genocide, not a Palestinian state.

As for why the other Arab states refuse to take them in, they don't what Hamas, either. Every Arab state that has taken in any of the so-called Palestinian 'freedom has fighters' (so-called, because some were fighting for Palestinains and some for jihad) has found them to be threat to the government or to the state.

@andmeandmeandme

"Yes and this is exactly why 7/10 happened. It wasn't, as I've seen some posters suggest on other threads, a bunch of Hamas members taking their chance when it arose - it was a finely orchestrated and executed plan. A trap was set for Netanyahu and the warmongering and stupid prick walked straight into it, exactly as Hamas expected he would, although possibly not to the extent it has played out. But nevertheless Hamas probably can't believe their luck at the outcome so far, sadly."

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That is also a really good summary of the current situation.

Wow this is the first thread on this topic with posters looking at it objectively and using facts and evidence rather than "l'm right and you are wrong"

Sadly I expect it to be shortly derailed with conspiracy theories and whataboutery before finally getting pulled by MN after it descends into personal insults.

Because Hamas does not care about its own Palestinian people let alone Israeli people. They will never surrender. Iran bank rolls them.

Yeah, Hamas want to swap 140 Israeli hostages for over 1500 prisoners. It will never happen.

Congratulations on getting the first whataboutery in on what was previously an objectively based discussion.

It's for this very reason that no solution will ever be achieved as views are too entrenched and ideological to reach a compromise.

Hamas do not actually want a swap to happen, despite what they might say - they know fine well it won't happen so it's basically optics, in my opinion.

@TheCompactPussycat

"You've never heard of the Arms Trade"

++++

And congratulations on getting the first conspiracy theory in on this thread. Whilst conspiracy theorists can be amusing they are also somewhat tiresome. If you disagree with them they discount you as naive as if somehow they have some higher intellectual insight or calling that others don't when in reality they are just making shit up because it sounds more interesting.

Boring as it is the arms firms have no secret influence to either start, continue or influence this war. It's got nothing to do with arms manufacturers or Princess Diana's car crash or the lunar landings or the sinking of the Titanic.

The reality is that before the Hamas terrorist attack they were rapidly losing support from ordinary Gaza's who saw them as corrupt. Hamas then attacked Israel starting a war to improve their popularity ( the same tactic used by the Argentinian dictators on the Falklands or Saddam Hussein invading Kuwait).
Then Israel predictably reacts by bombing Gaza.

Where have Hamas categorically stated that?

I've heard it so many times on here I had a look at their founding charter, and their updated version a few years ago. In neither do they say they want to kill all Jews. In the updated one they categorically state that they do not have an issue with Jews, but with Israel and Zionism. Both major reference to Christians, Muslims and Jews living together on pact under the umbrella of Islam...

I'm not stupid enough to believe that their charter is necessarily what they believe, and their actions on 7/10 strongly imply otherwise, but I'm still interested in if they've officially taken the positive of wanting to kill all Jews or if it's an assumption people are making? Or a myth? Or an inference based on behaviour?

Neighbouring countries have never gone for accepting Palestinians because they have governments who'd rather the Palestinians were useful as an attack surface for Israel sadly. But also understandably Palestinians are scared that if they leave their land they'll never get it back again from Israel.

@ShelleyPercy

"The IDF have no ground game, nor do they have any public sympathy outside a few pockets in the US and UK."

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The reason you feel that the Israelis have no public sympathy is that you surround yourself with people who think the same way as yourself in a sad echo chamber.

The reality is the majority of the public are either uninterested or neutral seeing fault on both sides and are more concerned with paying the mortgage and or the cost of living.

It's a fair point to make. The detention of children without charge in military prisons, where there are allegations of sexual abuse and torture, is a potential grave human rights violation. The children should be immediately released, seen by medical professionals and claims investigated. We would never tolerate such practices in the UK. It is an obstacle to peace and negotiations to allow it to continue.

https://twitter.com/kthalps/status/1723538810221338973/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1723538810221338973&currentTweetUser=kthalps

@spaceraiders @missconductus do you mean this video?

This is all a very real part of Israeli politics and the way that the IDF operate.

Israel’s Minister of Defence, Ben-Gvir, is a convicted far-right Jewish terrorist.

Look at who Netanyahu runs the country with. They’re far-right ultranationalist extremists who call for forced expulsion of Palestinians. It’s not exactly a secret.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/02/israel-vigilante-settlers-violence-benjamin-netanyahu

Because the remaining hostages are all either dead, or if any young women/girls they've been gang raped continuously for weeks now...
To such an extent that they probably have injuries like the first young woman's body they found - a broken pelvis.
So they'd have to be killed as well so as to not provoke more of a visceral reaction when they'd talk about the gang rapes.

The Palestinians will never have peace until the far-right politicians in Israel are thrown in prison.

@Switchasaurous

Hamas, a Palestinian Islamist political and military organization currently in control of the Gaza Strip, has consistently advocated for the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic state across the entire territory of Palestine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callsforrthedestructionnof_Israel

In 2017 the Hamas charter was amended to allow a two state solution but only as a transitional before the liberation of all of Palestine (meaning Israel)

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

Another emotive insight that doesn't actually tell us anything or get us any further to a solution.