Why don't Hamas/Palestine surrender (and release hostages) in a losing conflict?

[sweetroastedpeanut]

Please preach me.

I greatly sympathize with the Palestinians and the innocent people attacked by Hamas. The sadness is imminent. Numerous lives lost and homes destroyed. The retaliation is getting out of proportion and bombing should stop right now.

However, I cannot make sense of why there's no one asking Hamas / Palestine to surrender to facilitate an immediate cease fire.

Why doesn't Hamas got chased away from Palestine for peace, who initiate the conflict themselves on 7 Oct (And ironically the heads of Hamas are not in Palestine taking the blow).

And why doesn't Palestine's allies (e.g. Lebanon, Iran) provides humanitarian aids and give a big welcome and provide shelter for Palestinians but fanning the flames instead?

I know many will talk about the long history of conflict and how Palestine has been suffering but I think that's not really helping in achieving an immediate cease fire here. If ceasefire is the priority, and the lives of civilians matter, then Hamas should surrender now. And Palestinians should turn the trouble makers in.

I cannot help but thinking Hamas leaders are cowards who cannot take responsibility for the mess they have created, while ducking under the bodies of civilians who die for Hamas foolishness.

Great, so Wikipedia 😂😂

Have you actually read their original charter and amended one?

Calling for the dissolution of the state of Israel is not calling for the killing of all Jews in any event is it?

So I ask again, what are your sources for the equally held view that Hamas want to kill all Jews?

How does it not tell you anything?

It’s a central point to the discussion: you cannot achieve peace with the current Israeli government in power.

You can disagree if you show me evidence to the contrary, which you have not, and cannot.

sweetroastedpeanut

And why doesn't Palestine's allies (e.g. Lebanon, Iran) provides humanitarian aids and give a big welcome and provide shelter for Palestinians but fanning the flames instead?

Because as soon as they let the Palestinians in they will be accused of harbouring terrorists and become a target themselves.

@Echobelly

Thank you for a rational and objective post. Sadly this thread needs more of them rather than the usual emotive or whataboutery or conspiracy posts.

@Switchasaurous Haven't read the Hamas charter, but 1977 founding charter of Likud, Netanyahu's party calls for Israel to rule from river to the sea. So, the current Israeli government calls for no Palestinian state and Israeli sovereignty everywhere.

This is so obvious I'm shocked it isn't discussed or even mentioned on these threads.

And the babies, the hostage babies and toddlers never get mentioned. God knows what unspeakable tortures they've suffered.

Doesn't look so good on a pro-Hamas placard though does it?

@1dayatatime I was being dead serious
What about the children
Should they not be considered as part of a hostage negotiation?
If that could be brokered would it not help ease the situation
A sort of breakthrough of some sort

Boring as it is the arms firms have no secret influence to either start, continue or influence this war. It's got nothing to do with arms manufacturers or Princess Diana's car crash or the lunar landings or the sinking of the Titanic.

I'm not suggesting any conspiracy theories at all. You've misunderstood my point. I haven't claimed the arms trade has any influence. I merely responded to the poster who couldn't work out who might be making billions from the conflict. Saying the arms trade has a vested interest in hoping the conflict doesn't get resolved too quickly is a point of fact. It does not imply I think they have any influence.

@1dayatatime it's obviously not going to happen where Israel will exchange palestinian prisoners who are being help after being charged with a crime
But an exchange of minors and others held without charge or trial with hostages could very well happen. I don't see why not or why its incredulous to suggest it.

Don't put Hamas and Palestine together like that in your title

Ah, so the video doesn't say what implied it does, or perhaps doesn't exist.

Got it.

Yes. Apache helicopters/ fighter jets/ tanks thousand’s upon thousands of bombs dropped in the past month don’t come cheap. Also the director of unicef is married to the biggest arms dealer black rock.

@SeulementUneFois please don't say that. We have no evidence that this is the case.

Hamas have said quite publicly since this has started that they intend to get rid of Israel. As Israel is the Jewish state and it won't just be handed over it is obvious what they are proposing.

I am also only aware of Hamas offering some hostages Back not all and I believe that is what is unpalatable to Netanyahu and the Israeli people. We don't want another situation where some (particularly solider's) are left there for years.

We also only know what the generally vocal Hamas are telling us. Of course there is a lot going on behind the scenes with all involved.

Your Twitter link doesn't work.

And the whataboutery starts....

Netanyahu is committed to the destruction of any Palestinian state. 'From the sea to the River Jordan there will be only Israeli sovereignty.' Likud founding charter 1977. 2 sides of the same coin.

@Parkingt111 You are right about the children in Israeli military detention, but some posters won't even discuss it because they know it is wrong.

You said "The Palestinians will never have peace until the far-right politicians in Israel are thrown in prison".

Do you honestly think bundling a group of far-right politicians into the slammer is going to bring about peace, a two-state solution? That would make not a blind bit of difference. It's going to require compromise, diplomacy and negotiation, supported by the Western governments and neighbouring countries. Even if a more left wing Government are voted in by Israelis, they're hardly going to bow down to Hamas' demands. Israel still needs to keep its population safe, whether or not you want to hear that.

Unfortunately, we're now so far away from anything resembling a compromise it doesn't seem even slightly feasible that peace will come to, not just Palestinians, but also Israelis. It's a horrendous situation. Throwing Netanyahu and his chums in the jail isn't even going to even scratch the surface.

@Parkingt111

@1dayatatime I was being dead serious
What about the children
Should they not be considered as part of a hostage negotiation?
If that could be brokered would it not help ease the situation
A sort of breakthrough of some sort

+++

OK I believe you are being serious and not emotive as your previous posts are often quite rational.

So should children (defined as between the ages of 12 and 17) that are being held in Israeli prisons without being charged be released? Absolutely yes

Should children that are held in Israeli prisons for crimes in the West Bank or Gaza be held in Israeli prisons be released?
Absolutely yes because Israel should have no jurisdiction over what happens in Palestinian territory. It would be like me committing a crime in France but being imprisoned in the UK. It's up to the French authorities to decide whether I am imprisoned or not.

Should children that are held in Israeli prisons for crimes committed in Israel be released?
No if they have been convicted but they should be held in children"s facilities and not adult prisons.

As for making it part of the whole hostage release deal you could it just makes any solution that much harder to achieve.

@MissConductUS Sorry about that, I’ve just used the share link rather than URL this time, so hopefully that works:

https://x.com/kthalps/status/1723538810221338973?s=20

In any case, it’s from Katie Helper’s Twitter/X account.

Katie Halper*
autocorrect fail

@1dayatatime
Thanks for answering but why would it make it more difficult
Hamas is asking for a deal to negotiate a hostage release. Israel are not going to release convicted prisoners. The most obvious would be to do a deal with minors held without charge. Right now I see it as battle of the egos, nobody wants to back down and in this situation nobody loses face

Hamas is a death cult first of all. If you believe you are guaranteed paradise when you die then life means very little. They have no interest and in a cease fire and have no regard interest in preserving the lives of Garzan civilians.

This is actually a large part of this war and a huge grievance for many palestinians. These minors are barely mentioned
A group that is doing amazing work on highlighting their cause is b'tsalem. They are a Israeli human rights group that want to see real equality and peaceful co-existence