Why don't Hamas/Palestine surrender (and release hostages) in a losing conflict?

[sweetroastedpeanut]

Please preach me.

I greatly sympathize with the Palestinians and the innocent people attacked by Hamas. The sadness is imminent. Numerous lives lost and homes destroyed. The retaliation is getting out of proportion and bombing should stop right now.

However, I cannot make sense of why there's no one asking Hamas / Palestine to surrender to facilitate an immediate cease fire.

Why doesn't Hamas got chased away from Palestine for peace, who initiate the conflict themselves on 7 Oct (And ironically the heads of Hamas are not in Palestine taking the blow).

And why doesn't Palestine's allies (e.g. Lebanon, Iran) provides humanitarian aids and give a big welcome and provide shelter for Palestinians but fanning the flames instead?

I know many will talk about the long history of conflict and how Palestine has been suffering but I think that's not really helping in achieving an immediate cease fire here. If ceasefire is the priority, and the lives of civilians matter, then Hamas should surrender now. And Palestinians should turn the trouble makers in.

I cannot help but thinking Hamas leaders are cowards who cannot take responsibility for the mess they have created, while ducking under the bodies of civilians who die for Hamas foolishness.

@Parkingt111 it's now becoming a large part of the war but I don't remember Hamas stating that's why they carried out the atrocities?

@Stomacharmeleon yes you are right not in those exact words, but one of the reasons given was policies in the west back that is unfair against the Palestinians aswell as oppression against them by settlers
This would include detaining minors and normal civilians without trial or charge which has Unfortunately increased massively over the years

Hamas has been trying to negotiate a prisoner exchange for the hostages from day 1 of this.

This is the earliest article I can find on it, due to the sheer amount of recent news on the topic:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/qatar-leads-talks-swap-hamas-held-hostages-palestinians-israeli-jails-2023-10-09/

“Eran Lerman, a former Israeli deputy national security adviser, said no Israeli would concede to conditions of the hostage takers, citing the brutality of the attack.

"We should have to see how long they are going to hold the hostages when over the next few days there is no water, no electricity, no food, no medicine for the entire Gaza population.””

Hamas want a full prisoner exchange, but Israel want all hostages released unconditionally. Neither side will budge.

Both major reference to Christians, Muslims and Jews living together on pact under the umbrella of Islam...

Show me somewhere where that happens. Where is there a fundamentalist Islamic country where Jews are allowed to live in genuine security and with the same freedom to practice their religion as the Muslims have?

I believe it's Israel's intention to destroy all the Palestinians, genocide would sort things out once and for all.

Okay. If Hamas isn't losing this war that it has started, why is the emphasis for a ceasefire on Israel, the " losing" side?
Their cannot be two realities combined. One of " poor Hamas, poor Gazans who are dying for a war that their government cannot win, therefore it's full time for Israel to put down her arms". Or " Israel has bombed Gaza to buggery defending herself, incurring online worldwide wrath, yet Hamas is winning the war it started ".
Make it make sense to those who have sense.
Because by most definitions of winning and losing, Hamas is neither killing loads more Israelis , is failing to defend Gazans and hasn't acquired a square inch more land, nor as it killed most of the IDF.
Whereas Israel has turned a lot of Gaza into rubble, lots of Gazans are dead and Hamas is playing peekaboo behind the women, children and other vulnerables it governs.
Now certain people may WANT Hamas to win this war that it has started and those same people are on a fake it to make it tip .

I've had to buck up this thread as possibly the only place on the internet outside of the intense Hamas supporting chatrooms to see that Hamas is not losing the war , what with Gaza rubblerised and how many thousand Gazans dead without Hamas achieving any of it aims, either?

I didn't say their charter reflects the reality of how they act, I was clear that it didn't. It's clearly a much more palatable version of how they act.

But you said that they have STATED they want to kill all Jews. I'm asking for where they have said this, because it's not what they say in their charter...

Or indeed Hamas.

Therein lies the problem.

nail on the head !

Yes in a nutshell.

@OneHurtSpaggettio Hamas has said a lot of things and not done a lot of them. They have no need to hold babies without parents or elderly holocaust survivors.
They could say who is alive.
I watched an interview when the Hamas representative refused to agree that they even had hostages so don't try and paint them as the even amenable terrorists.
Most of this is fixable by Hamas. And with the lens firmly placed on that area this could lead to the whole two state solution coming into fruition. If all play ball...

@Switchasaurous maybe read the history of yahya sinwar and talk to me about peace loving Hamas. I think it was the bit about him learning Hebrew to study the Israelis and use the info against them and getting a collaborators brother to bury him alive.
He has also murdered many Palestinians and Israeli's.
Hamas are clear in their intent hence the fact they are a recognised terrorist organisation here.

You know that twice when Hamas has offered to release hostages (two each time) Israel didn't take them for a few days?!

And shouldn't the question be, why doesn't Israel put down weapons and negotiate to get its hostages back? THEN "attack Hamas"? There's an answer. The hostages are NOT a priority. That was obvious since the beginning. Israeli govt wrote them off straight away. Far better to have them dead anyway from their own bombs and claim Hamas killed them. Certainly better than having released hostages saying "Shalom" to Hamas members and telling the world they were decently treated, all things considered. Israel DEFINITELY doesn't want any more of that!

I feel for the hostages' loved ones. First their family members are taken hostage and they don't know if they're alive or dead. Then they wait thinking their government will save them, of course they will. And then it slowly dawns on them that their government pays lip service only to rescuing them. So they're left protesting outside the parliament while their own airforce bombs the places they're likely in, cuts of food, water and medical aid and they're there enjoying hotel Hamas. FFS. How utterly, utterly horrific.

@OneHurtSpaggettio No, the one I’m referring to doesn’t seem recent, it looks like it was filmed under cover. It’s fairly easy to find if you type Netanyahu into the Twitter search bar.

It's certainly hard to get your head around the way they view things. A child on one of the kibbutzes who was traumatised by having just watched their father being shot said that the killer told him quite calmly not to fret, as his dad was in heaven. Well that's OK then!

I mean, bonkers. The sooner we outlaw organised religion of any kind, the better as far as I'm concerned. The things that have been done in the name of God Almighty always throw everything else into the shade.

'There enjoying hotel Hamas'
Wow....
Of course the peace loving Yocheved Lifshitz said she was treated well.... oh after she was beaten with sticks.... they are still holding her octogenarian husband.

@Parkingt111

"@1dayatatime
Thanks for answering but why would it make it more difficult
Hamas is asking for a deal to negotiate a hostage release. Israel are not going to release convicted prisoners. The most obvious would be to do a deal with minors held without charge. Right now I see it as battle of the egos, nobody wants to back down and in this situation nobody loses face"

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I agree that most obvious "win" right now would be for either Israel to release minors held without charge or for Hamas to release the babies and children held as hostages or even better both.

I don't see it so much as a battle of egos but more a case of entrenched views where each side cannot even objectively see the other's views even if they disagree with those views.

Whilst I fully expected that in the immediate aftermath of the terrorist attack I had hoped that this view would soften with both sides seeing it as actually in their interest to avoid further civilian deaths.

However views have become further entrenched not less and it has turned into battle of convictions of "I'm right and you are wrong" and no evidence, facts or logical rationalisation will ever change that view.

From a UK perspective it is not helped by the usual rent a mob of the far right on one side that if they weren't counter protesting would be starting a fight at a football match instead. And the left wing on the other side that previously had zero interest or understanding of the Palestinian - Israeli conflict and if they weren't protesting about this would be protesting about Just Stop Oil or Black Lives Matter etc.

Oh well if its not in the charter! How cab anyone deny their long history of saying it? Did you look at all? Just one example:

A senior member of Gaza's Islamist rulers Hamas has encouraged Palestinians across the globe to kill Jews, drawing outrage from both Israeli and Palestinian officials as well as a U.N. envoy.
In video from a speech to participants of weekly protests on Friday, Fathi Hamad, a member of the movement's top political body, can be seen calling on Palestinians across the globe to carry out attacks.
"If this siege is not undone, we will explode in the face of our enemies, with God's permission. The explosion is not only going to be in Gaza but also in the West Bank and abroad, God willing," Hamad said.
"But our brothers outside are preparing, trying to prepare, warming up."
He continued: "Seven million Palestinians outside, enough warming up, you have Jews with you in every place. You should attack every Jew possible in all the world and kill them."
https://www.voanews.com/a/middle-east_hamas-official-condemned-after-calling-palestinians-kill-jews/6171870.html

I'm not saying they are peace loving 😂
I'm not saying they aren't terrorists
I'm not saying that they haven't done awful things

But people keep saying things like 'it's in their charter to kill all Jews', which is clearly totally made up. So when people say 'Hamas have stated that they want to kill all Jews' , I'm asking for evidence.

You know, to separate out truth and myth.

Given that no one have so far responded with 'x, leader of Hamas said on x date' with a link to a source, I'm wondering if that's because it doesn't exist?

It doesn't suddenly make Hamas the good guys, but let's be as accurate in what we say as we can be.

Thank you for your link.

I'm certainly no Hamas team over here, I just like evidence based discussion.

That's quite interesting politically (is your want to call it that). His comments very much go against the charter, and he is/was senior enough in their leadership that what he says should be considered their official stance.

He then walked back his remarks to talk in line with the official Hamas position.

To me it says that either:

1. their 'official' position, as stated in their charter is not reflected in their views, and this was an occasion they let their mask slip very obviously

2. there is a difference in opinion between those high up in Hamas, with some agreeing with the official line, and others wanting annihilation of all Jews.

I think it's important to know which, as the latter is more likely to result in any form of peace (however unlikely).

@Livinginanotherworld

"MissConductUS
Do you really think that Israel has used billions worth of weapons in Gaza, or that arms makers are somehow behind the war?

Yes in a nutshell"

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Oh dear.

The reality is that this is a complex conflict that has been going on for decades and all the while ordinary civilians have been paying the price.

Trying to find a solution is not helped by nutjob conspiracy theories by people thinking they have some unique intellectual insight that others don't possess whereas in reality they are just spouting bullshit.

they're terrorists, their charter is not what their leaders, theres loads of examples if you look for them, actually say or how they operate. They also say in the updated charter:

1. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.
2. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, Judaization or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.

What makes you think you can or should trust terrorists? They use their own people as human shields, they do not care how many people die on either side.

Well said, thank you.

American arms makers (Lockheed, Boeing, General Dynamics, etc.) have more work than they can handle, thanks to the war in Ukraine. The wait time for a lot of weapons systems is measured in years. So there's not much incentive for them to exert some mysterious influence to create demand.

I don't trust them.

I also don't trust the Israeli government, whose aims are just as horrid.

I'd like them both to stop. I'd like those responsible for 9/10 to face justice. I'd like the hostages released.

I'd like the Israeli government to stop committing war crimes, genocide and ethnic cleansing. I'd like them to release those they have taken hostage -people, especially kids, held in 'administrative detention'. I'd like them to do building settlement's in the West Bank and remove the ones already there.

I'd like them to stop sewing the seeds of the hamas of 25 years time.

Both sides need their heads banging together tbh. But i expect more from a nation that holds itself up to be a democracy and holds all the power.

You’re putting words in my mouth again. You asked ParkingT about what Hamas said from the start re: taking hostages and I said that they have asked for a total prisoner exchange from the start, which is what they are still asking for. I was adding to the conversation with additional info as ParkingT was correct.

Now, if you want my opinion: of course Hamas should release the hostages, as it’s morally wrong to keep them.

None of this really matters, however, as Netanyahu has no incentive to slow the genocide. The only way that he is saving his corrupt self from getting sent to prison for the fraud and breach of trust charges is by keeping the far-right on side.

In order to keep the far-right on side, he needs to continue to be as horrific and barbaric towards the Palestinians as possible in order to drive them from their homeland and/or destroy their hearts, minds and infrastructure enough that it sets them back decades, leaving them terribly weakened just before they begin another occupation with illegal settlements and to finally seize the oil and gas in Gaza, which they’ve been after for about 25 years.

This genocide really is a win-win for him, both politically and financially.

Hamas are the bogeyman that the Israeli govt helped create to get out the PLO (https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/).

Then we have the “blowback”: Hamas commit a 9/11 type atrocity, and just like the US govt, the Israeli govt never let a good tragedy go to waste; they are seizing an opportunity to go after the oil and gas in Gaza, just like the US did after 9/11 when they invaded Iraq looking for oil, or I’m sorry, “weapons of mass destruction” (https://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinion/iraq-war-oil-juhasz/index.html). In this case, Hamas are the “weapons of mass destruction.”

It was also a similar “blowback” situation for the US, as Bin Laden was funded by the US as they wanted to create a terror group to fight the Soviets.

It’s funny how history repeats itself, except the war crimes being committed by Israel are over and above even Iraq, because of the far-right members in the Israeli govt.

It is utterly horrific and has far less to do with Hamas than you think, and far more to do with political and financial goals of Israel, the US and the UK.

This is all without mentioning the billions that Israel makes from its constant “wars”: https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-arms-sales-doubled-in-a-decade-hit-new-record-of-12-5-billion-in-2022/amp/

These wars are littered war crimes, but they carry them out with impunity as people like Boris Johnson, who are quite literally on the Israeli govt payroll, block them:
https://amp.theguardian.com/law/2023/nov/12/uk-government-challenged-over-icc-inquiry-into-israels-conduct

Boris on the payroll:
https://www.declassifieduk.org/revealed-third-of-british-cabinet-including-boris-johnson-has-been-funded-by-israel-or-pro-israel-lobby-groups/

So threads like this are entirely pointless. Unless the far-right rot in the Israeli govt is removed, there will never be peace.

But how will it? They are frighteningly popular in Israel, largely due to persistent and consistent propaganda and disinformation.

This person wrote a great post on Quora on the subject:
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-far-right-in-Israel-so-popular