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Conflict in the Middle East
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40
HeidiInTheBigCity · 06/11/2023 20:55

SomeCatFromJapan · 06/11/2023 20:38

The bombing is absolutely horrible to witness, of course, and it's now done in a world where it can all be filmed and distributed in real time so everyone can see the results of war, which are very hard to stomach.

However it is not true to say that this is some sort of a record, unfortunately since aerial combat became a reality you've got these enormous civilian death tolls. Sixty thousand civilians in France were killed by Allied bombs and that was us aiding them. We killed twenty five thousand in the Dresden firestorm.
The nuclear bombs dropped on Japan killed over a hundred thousand initially with the end result being double that.

And the Allies are celebrated as the heroes, the good guys.

The Vietnam war killed around two million civilians, although that is obviously more controversial, and there have been around three hundred thousand civilians killed in Iraq and a hundred and seventy six thousand in Afghanistan due to the coalition invasions.

In Yemen around twenty thousand civilians have been directly killed by Saudi airstrikes but a further two hundred and twenty seven thousand are estimated dead due to famine.
In Syria, an estimated two hundred and thirty thousand civilians have been killed in the recent conflict.

I could go on here, there have been many more conflicts globally since the end of world war two but you get the picture.

My point I guess is that this is horrible but it is not uniquely awful, there have been many occasions, most notably for our own history the second world war, where civilian deaths have been deemed worth it to achieve an objective by those in power.

I do genuinely think that the utter outrage here is that it is Israel carrying out the airstrikes and causing the deaths, and that if this had been a conflict between two majority-Muslim countries or areas in the Middle East it would not be top of the news cycle and attracting huge protests.

See, the major issue I have with this is ... it could also be summarised up as "shit happens, if you are particularly outraged about this particular shit, you are just basically against Israel, in particular!"

This leaves out two important questions:

  1. Who people are and how old they are! I will personally confess to not having taken any particular stance during the Vietnam War - my bad! I have the sorry excuse that my parents were minors and I had not even been born when that happened! In a "possibly more pertinent" sense: I very much was both a) alive and b) aware - in a very childish way; I thought that "Lebanon" was a mountain, and that people slept in caves at night and came out to shoot one another to death during daylight - of the Lebanese civil war, of people starving in Romania (my mum used to send food packages and take us with her to the post office), and Saddam invading Kuwait, followed by the US bombing Iraq. When Auschwitz happened, and when Dresden was bombed, my grandparents would have been mere teenagers!

Long story short: it is not particularly pertinent to ask people to accept things on the grounds that "oh, but: this is the level of carnage that used to be acceptable" - especially not when we went to school and were taught that "this shit was wrong" - only to be asked to now please see it differently, so long as the right sort of people are dying!

  1. A lot more importantly ... it does not have to be "unique" for it to be categorically wrong, morally and legally indefensible, and for it to make us all complicit when we say nothing!
Ohlalalalala · 06/11/2023 20:59

feralunderclass · 06/11/2023 20:43

Why does the "imbalance" of sympathy upset you but the imbalance of victims doesn't? A state, that is supposed to be civil and democratic, has killed 10k+ civilians in response to an attack by a proscribed terrorist organization that killed about one tenth of that? I think ^thats' what is causing the imbalance of sympathy and it's only going to get worse 😢

100%

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 06/11/2023 21:01

I agree antisemitism is a problem but insisting that all criticism of the Israeli government is a cover for antisemitism is wrong.

This.

I am horrified for the poor families of the Israelis targeted on 7/10. I understand the dread people must feel when surrounded by people who hate them. I see that the world is antisemitic and there are dangerous people who wish Jews ill. All of that is true.

But many of us grew up in communities and families where antisemitism wasn't at the forefront. I lived in a very mixed community with Jewish, Asian (Muslim and Hindu, mainly), Black, white people all going to school together and getting along OK. We were all friends together. I heard family and friends of family saying things about Asian and Black people. It was the 70s/80s in South London. People said shit. And my Black and Asian friends were harassed by the police and sometimes suffered serious racism. But I never remember a single person saying anything bad about Jewish friends and neighbours in my house. The only time I heard something once in the street was an elderly German women who said something and I was horrified. I thought it was something historical, like I'd walked into the Merchant of Venice or 1930s Germany. My parents, who could say some weird shit, liked and welcomed my Jewish friends, liked and welcomed our Jewish neighbours, respected my school friends. Used to joke around whenever I got a good mark and ask what Gil got because he was the only person in my class who ever did as well as I did. They spoke about the holocaust and my dad would get tearful because his father was career munitions in the army and was involved in some of the aftermath of the camps. Dad used to use this experience every time he'd hear about holocaust denial and say, "I know it was all true, my father was there and saw it". I say the same if ever I hear that bullshit.

Some people are using what is happening to excuse their antisemitism. But many people aren't critical of Israel for that reason. Many people are simply desperate for the slaughter of innocent children to stop. And there are clearly people who are using accusations of antisemitism to shut people up. It's a terrible thing to accuse someone of and to do that to silence opposition is dreadful.

People are also comparing what Hamas does and what Israel is doing and asking who the difference in expectations. It's because one is a democratically elected government, with a mandate, supported by many other similar governments. The other is a terrorist organisation, with no current mandate, not had an election in over a decade, terrible democracy score, supported by rogue nations. The people in Gaza haven't had the chance to elect someone else, they can't change things. But they are suffering and dying as a result. Expecting more from Israel isn't a sign of antisemitism, for some people it's a sign that we have expectations of humanity and decency. That hope is fading fast. It's really only the brave and inspiring Israelis who are protesting keeping that alive. In the face of horrible provocation.

Parkingt111 · 06/11/2023 21:06

And again for those still denying the deaths on here the US has also finally conceded that its in the thousands
There has been a definite shift in tone from the US. Its not because they suddenly have started caring about palestinians but to save their own backs

Number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza over 10,000 😡
feralunderclass · 06/11/2023 21:10

SomeCatFromJapan · 06/11/2023 20:47

A state, that is supposed to be civil and democratic, has killed 10k+ civilians in response to an attack by a proscribed terrorist organizationthat killed about one tenth of that? I think ^thats' what is causing the imbalance of sympathy and it's only going to get worse

Again if you compare to the second world war, Germany lost up to three million civilians whereas the UK lost only 67000.

I think depending on people's view on Israel, they are seeing the bombing of Gaza either as a tit-for-tat revenge attack or as a campaign with a specific objective, and civilian deaths as unintended but unavoidable collatoral.

I don't see the Israel/Palestine conflict as remotely comparable to WW2.

Newbutoldfather · 06/11/2023 21:14

Once you accept that Israel has a right to go after Hamas, the only question is how.

If you want to go back a really long time, the idea of dying in war was considered glorious. Recently, however, countries waging war want to achieve their objectives and lose as few of their own lives as possible. Is this morally right? I don’t know but every nation fights by this dictum today, which means ‘preparing the ground’ using missiles and bombs. This inevitably causes civilian deaths, especially in urban environments.

It is easy to be an armchair general and assume Israel could prosecute this war more gently. But no one on this thread knows that to be the case and so, for the moment at least, I am prepared to believe Israel is trying to kill the fewest civilians to achieve their objectives.

LemongrassLollipop · 06/11/2023 21:14

This is despicable and it's happening before our very eyes. Just awful, horrific. Babies even and children killed with no repercussions.

The West are supporting the genocide which strengthens Israel. I fear it won't stop until there are no Palestinians left to defend their land.

Newbutoldfather · 06/11/2023 21:15

@SomeCatFromJapan nailed it in her analysis of different people’s reactions.

feralunderclass · 06/11/2023 21:24

Newbutoldfather · 06/11/2023 21:14

Once you accept that Israel has a right to go after Hamas, the only question is how.

If you want to go back a really long time, the idea of dying in war was considered glorious. Recently, however, countries waging war want to achieve their objectives and lose as few of their own lives as possible. Is this morally right? I don’t know but every nation fights by this dictum today, which means ‘preparing the ground’ using missiles and bombs. This inevitably causes civilian deaths, especially in urban environments.

It is easy to be an armchair general and assume Israel could prosecute this war more gently. But no one on this thread knows that to be the case and so, for the moment at least, I am prepared to believe Israel is trying to kill the fewest civilians to achieve their objectives.

There's no need to be an "armchair general", you only need one eye and half a brain to conclude that Israel could have reacted proportionally. The world is finally realizing that this is a calculated, ongoing eradication of the Palestinian people.

Silence1 · 06/11/2023 21:32

I keep hearing WW2 being mentioned and I thought it reminds me more of Germany invading Poland. Here's a description from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum

"The Nazis considered Poles to be racially inferior. Following the military defeat of Poland by Germany in September 1939, the Germans launched a campaign of terror intended to destroy the Polish nation and culture and to reduce the Poles to a leaderless population of peasants and workers laboring for German masters.
Hitler intended to “Germanize” Poland by replacing the Polish population with German colonists. Only enough Poles would be retained as were needed for basic labor, the rest would be driven out or killed.
As a first step, Nazi governors in the annexed territories (such as Arthur Greiser in the Warthegau View This Term in the Glossary
and Albert Forster in Danzig-West Prussia) forcibly deported hundreds of thousands of Poles into the Generalgouvernement. More than 500,000 ethnic Germans were then settled in these areas."

OuiOuiKitty · 06/11/2023 21:37

I'm starting to think that the reason some posters like @SomeCatFromJapan can't imagine that anyone would have objections to Israel for any other reason than because they are a Jewish state is that they themselves for whatever reasons are very hung up about the fact that Isreal is a Jewish state so they can't see that to others it just isn't a factor in their feelings. There are so many different reasons people feel pulled to different causes. I will admit that I am hung up on it because Israel is an occupying power and the rhetoric from Israel regarding the primitive, barbaric Arabs needing to be controlled feels very close to home to me, I can relate. I know @HeidiInTheBigCity has spoken many times about why this feels very close to home to her and why she feels strongly about it.

We all have causes that we support for a myriad of reasons, most of us don't support causes out of hate, we support them because we feel like we can relate or because it is something we care deeply about. Some things just resonate more than others and that should be ok, we shouldn't be made to feel guilty or even worse bigoted because of that.

EasterIssland · 06/11/2023 21:47

OuiOuiKitty · 06/11/2023 21:37

I'm starting to think that the reason some posters like @SomeCatFromJapan can't imagine that anyone would have objections to Israel for any other reason than because they are a Jewish state is that they themselves for whatever reasons are very hung up about the fact that Isreal is a Jewish state so they can't see that to others it just isn't a factor in their feelings. There are so many different reasons people feel pulled to different causes. I will admit that I am hung up on it because Israel is an occupying power and the rhetoric from Israel regarding the primitive, barbaric Arabs needing to be controlled feels very close to home to me, I can relate. I know @HeidiInTheBigCity has spoken many times about why this feels very close to home to her and why she feels strongly about it.

We all have causes that we support for a myriad of reasons, most of us don't support causes out of hate, we support them because we feel like we can relate or because it is something we care deeply about. Some things just resonate more than others and that should be ok, we shouldn't be made to feel guilty or even worse bigoted because of that.

Bingo. I’ve been accused of hating Jewish and that if it was any other religion I’d not criticise it as much.
the fact is I’m basque , if Spain was killing anyone like Israel is doing I’d be criticising it. If Spain was killing basque people when ETA killed , I’d be critising it. I care about people’s lives independently of their nationality or religion (im atheist after seeing how many people die because of religion and power)

HeidiInTheBigCity · 06/11/2023 21:55

OuiOuiKitty · 06/11/2023 21:37

I'm starting to think that the reason some posters like @SomeCatFromJapan can't imagine that anyone would have objections to Israel for any other reason than because they are a Jewish state is that they themselves for whatever reasons are very hung up about the fact that Isreal is a Jewish state so they can't see that to others it just isn't a factor in their feelings. There are so many different reasons people feel pulled to different causes. I will admit that I am hung up on it because Israel is an occupying power and the rhetoric from Israel regarding the primitive, barbaric Arabs needing to be controlled feels very close to home to me, I can relate. I know @HeidiInTheBigCity has spoken many times about why this feels very close to home to her and why she feels strongly about it.

We all have causes that we support for a myriad of reasons, most of us don't support causes out of hate, we support them because we feel like we can relate or because it is something we care deeply about. Some things just resonate more than others and that should be ok, we shouldn't be made to feel guilty or even worse bigoted because of that.

Seeing as you have tagged me, I sort of feel obliged to respond:

YES, I do feel strongly about it all! In the sense of: "people I love(d) have died, been imprisoned, and ... it is just all really wrong!". Also, in the very personal sense of "I have war trauma - I have had the best therapy imaginable to try and fix it, but: I still have war trauma - over that stupid mistake of falling in love with the wrong man (and: it did not even work out; we are divorced, for entirely non-political reasons)".

But also: if my fucking war trauma has taught me anything - anything at all!!! - it has got to be this: it has GOT TO BE "humans over ideology" always! At any given point!

I will NEVER not demand fairness.

I will also NEVER stand for the slaughter of civilians. And I could not personally care less who their leaders are! I am ... something, anything ... you tell me, because I really do not know who I am anymore at this point! ... I am something in between "humanitarian first", "philosophical anarchosyndicalist with a corporate career first", "friends & family first" ... I am one of those. All of those.

I just cannot stand anyone who advocates for the wholesale dehumanisation of people as they are dying. And I demand the right to take this position without being able to offer any "off the shelf" solution to an issue that existed before I did!

If that makes me a bad person: SO FUCKING BE IT!

SomeCatFromJapan · 06/11/2023 22:24

I keep hearing WW2 being mentioned and I thought it reminds me more of Germany invading Poland

Poland didn't carry out a terrorist atrocity against Germany prior to invasion.

immigrant002 · 06/11/2023 22:25

PurpleChrayne · 06/11/2023 13:17

I presume you're aware that Al Jazeera is the mouthpiece of Qatar, and their source is the "Palestinian Health Ministry", which is Hamas.

You all sound the same ... i wonder if you have a textbook of what to say

immigrant002 · 06/11/2023 22:26

orangegato · 06/11/2023 13:22

Can’t be hurting Hamas’ conscience too much or they’d give the hostages back.

They are fucking bombing hostages too . They are in gaza aren't they ? Do you honestly think that they care about hostages at this point ?

immigrant002 · 06/11/2023 22:28

I saw this today

https://www.transcend.org/tms/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sf-israel-projects-2009-global-language-dictionary.pdf?fbclid=PAAaY1js19XW6TGrv2WhCBiiktGL9ure5yFgfGASDgwP3go1cqUR9QJK61omcaemmAWP8vFkPk3HPy4kMVXuEEiX53cKJsXE7Q16ZwDudFOMEQd0o72pzlOgJuQbThXCzEQ

An actual guide for what to day ! It sounds exactly like some posters on this subject

SomeCatFromJapan · 06/11/2023 22:31

@OuiOuiKitty I don't think that's everyone's objection to Israel at all. I think many particularly on the left see it as an extension of the US or even of white colonialism.
Also many people who may not be well informed will just view Israel as the aggressor and Gaza as the underdog due to discrepancy in military power.

EasterIssland · 06/11/2023 22:35

SomeCatFromJapan · 06/11/2023 22:24

I keep hearing WW2 being mentioned and I thought it reminds me more of Germany invading Poland

Poland didn't carry out a terrorist atrocity against Germany prior to invasion.

Prior to invasion? Israel has been invading for a while Palestine but you already know that
same as idf has been raping women and killing innocent children. But you also know that already

FOJN · 06/11/2023 22:36

immigrant002 · 06/11/2023 22:28

I saw this today

https://www.transcend.org/tms/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sf-israel-projects-2009-global-language-dictionary.pdf?fbclid=PAAaY1js19XW6TGrv2WhCBiiktGL9ure5yFgfGASDgwP3go1cqUR9QJK61omcaemmAWP8vFkPk3HPy4kMVXuEEiX53cKJsXE7Q16ZwDudFOMEQd0o72pzlOgJuQbThXCzEQ

An actual guide for what to day ! It sounds exactly like some posters on this subject

Point 4, page 7.... I couldn't agree more.

SomeCatFromJapan · 06/11/2023 22:40

Prior to invasion? Israel has been invading for a while Palestine but you already know that
same as idf has been raping women and killing innocent children. But you also know that already

I've always been a harsh critic of Israel's actions in the West Bank and what I viewed as their indiscriminate bombing of Gaza.

7 October opened my eyes to the existential threat Israel faces though. I genuinely didn't realise what Hamas was before then. I thought the Israelis were exaggerating.

dadoodoodoo · 06/11/2023 22:55

i think part of the difference between this an other atrocities going on currently is the both overt and tacit support of western governments including our own. This rouses a clear “not in our name” response in many of us. Additionally when people ask “what should Israel do?” Surely the first thing if they want to keep a clear moral distance from Hamas is adhere to International laws of engagement? There is abundant evidence from numerous sources they haven’t. And no, Hamas haven’t, but they’re terrorist and not the same as the Palestinian people. And again in response to “what did Hamas expect”? Let’s turn it around. What does Israel think will be the outcome of this? Even if the do crush Hamas what is their plan for working towards a lasting peace.

SeldomSeenKidd · 06/11/2023 22:55

SomeCatFromJapan · 06/11/2023 22:40

Prior to invasion? Israel has been invading for a while Palestine but you already know that
same as idf has been raping women and killing innocent children. But you also know that already

I've always been a harsh critic of Israel's actions in the West Bank and what I viewed as their indiscriminate bombing of Gaza.

7 October opened my eyes to the existential threat Israel faces though. I genuinely didn't realise what Hamas was before then. I thought the Israelis were exaggerating.

Question: what do you think the true endgame is here? With talk of Netanyahu being reticent to scale back or accept a ceasefire due to seeing this as being his only way to hold on to political power and avoid incarceration, what is the mission accomplished scenario?

OuiOuiKitty · 06/11/2023 22:55

SomeCatFromJapan · 06/11/2023 22:40

Prior to invasion? Israel has been invading for a while Palestine but you already know that
same as idf has been raping women and killing innocent children. But you also know that already

I've always been a harsh critic of Israel's actions in the West Bank and what I viewed as their indiscriminate bombing of Gaza.

7 October opened my eyes to the existential threat Israel faces though. I genuinely didn't realise what Hamas was before then. I thought the Israelis were exaggerating.

But loads of things Israel don't anything to do with Hamas. Bombing children on the beach? Shooting children hanging out their washing and then lying about it. Killing an autistic man on his way home from school. Stealing land in the West Bank. Preventing people from building proper houses in the West Bank. Raping women. The humiliating way Palestinians are treated in the West Bank. Killing journalists then lying about it. Imprisoning and torturing children. So much that Israel does to Palestinians doesn't actually have anything to with Hamas at all. It's just about control and seeing Palestinians as less than.

OuiOuiKitty · 06/11/2023 22:59

HeidiInTheBigCity · 06/11/2023 21:55

Seeing as you have tagged me, I sort of feel obliged to respond:

YES, I do feel strongly about it all! In the sense of: "people I love(d) have died, been imprisoned, and ... it is just all really wrong!". Also, in the very personal sense of "I have war trauma - I have had the best therapy imaginable to try and fix it, but: I still have war trauma - over that stupid mistake of falling in love with the wrong man (and: it did not even work out; we are divorced, for entirely non-political reasons)".

But also: if my fucking war trauma has taught me anything - anything at all!!! - it has got to be this: it has GOT TO BE "humans over ideology" always! At any given point!

I will NEVER not demand fairness.

I will also NEVER stand for the slaughter of civilians. And I could not personally care less who their leaders are! I am ... something, anything ... you tell me, because I really do not know who I am anymore at this point! ... I am something in between "humanitarian first", "philosophical anarchosyndicalist with a corporate career first", "friends & family first" ... I am one of those. All of those.

I just cannot stand anyone who advocates for the wholesale dehumanisation of people as they are dying. And I demand the right to take this position without being able to offer any "off the shelf" solution to an issue that existed before I did!

If that makes me a bad person: SO FUCKING BE IT!

Apologies. I really didn't mean for you to feel forced to reply at all. You were just another poster that I remembered who has spoken about where some of your feelings come from.

I was just feeling angry at the way I constantly feel the need to justify myself, to somehow prove that I'm not hating on Israel for the fun of it. I'm angry that mumsnet constantly leaves personal attacks up when if people were calling others bitches or whatever instead of antisemitic they would take them down apologies again, I didn't mean for you to feel like you had to explain yourself.

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