Page 8 | What should the Israeli government do?

auberginefortea · 2023-11-05T13:04:54+00:00

I thought I'd start this thread to explicitly ask the question. What should the Israeli government do? I honestly don't know. I appreciate that Israel was attacked on October 7, and that they need to respond. I'm sure everyone wants peace, but what can Israel do?

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 12:11

MrTiddlesTheCat · 07/11/2023 12:08

I never said that. But crack on putting words in my mouth to suit your agenda.

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But you completely discounted their bloodshed? You've completely glossed over it with Hamas, Hamas, Hamas.

TodayInahurry · 07/11/2023 12:16

You do know that some Hamas leaders are living in the UK in council houses they bought? (Sunday Times). More are living a life of luxury in Qatar, on the aid money given to them?

Grantanow · 07/11/2023 12:21

While the Israeli government and Hamas continue to hold to their political positions, acknowledged or not, there is no solution.

MrTiddlesTheCat · 07/11/2023 12:29

HeidiInTheBigCity · 07/11/2023 12:10

Nice non-sequitur there - that was not what I called your logic out for!

You, again, literally said "I don’t see how a ceasefire will [...] prevent more bloodshed" - when it is blatantly obvious that putting a stop to indiscriminate bombing will, logically, result in a stop to bloodshed resulting directly from said bombing.

I think the position you are actually arguing for - if spelled out - boils down to this:

"I am more concerned over potential future deaths of Israelis than I am against those of Palestinians - and I am against a ceasefire because I happen to believe enough bombing can prevent the former. I am therefore willing to accept the latter."

Now, needless to say, I vehemently disagree with this position. In fact, I find it quite horribly racist in that it is extremely clear in its underlying assumption that some lives matter more - but spelled out like that it is at the very least logically consistent!

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I literally didn't. You are putting someone else's words into my mouth.

MrTiddlesTheCat · 07/11/2023 12:31

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 12:11

But you completely discounted their bloodshed? You've completely glossed over it with Hamas, Hamas, Hamas.

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Where have I discounted it? You're again putting words into my mouth to suit your agenda.

MrTiddlesTheCat · 07/11/2023 12:32

There can't be a reasonable discussion with disingenuous posters who lie about what others have said.

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 12:35

MrTiddlesTheCat · 07/11/2023 12:31

Where have I discounted it? You're again putting words into my mouth to suit your agenda.

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By saying that you are against a ceasefire. The only way to stop bloodshed now.

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 12:45

MrTiddlesTheCat · 07/11/2023 12:32

There can't be a reasonable discussion with disingenuous posters who lie about what others have said.

Sorry If you felt like that, i was genuinely trying to understand your point about Iran and if that's what you meant
I'm no fan of Iran myself. I think they are another one who is taking advantage of the situation for their own political interests

Efacsen · 07/11/2023 12:47

Other advantages to a ceasefire apart from curbing loss of life from bombing

1 Qatar and US have both said that some kind of pause/ceasefire is needed in order to move the large number of hostages to the right place and liaise with the Red Cross for their safe release,

2 More of the shit-ton of international humanitarian aid languishing in Egypt could actually be delivered to the people who desperately need it - there's clearly some kind of agreement already/mini ceasefire as none of the convoys over the last 2 weeks have been attacked by IDF or Hamas - widening that opportunity could save many more lives

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 12:50

Efacsen · 07/11/2023 12:47

Other advantages to a ceasefire apart from curbing loss of life from bombing

1 Qatar and US have both said that some kind of pause/ceasefire is needed in order to move the large number of hostages to the right place and liaise with the Red Cross for their safe release,

2 More of the shit-ton of international humanitarian aid languishing in Egypt could actually be delivered to the people who desperately need it - there's clearly some kind of agreement already/mini ceasefire as none of the convoys over the last 2 weeks have been attacked by IDF or Hamas - widening that opportunity could save many more lives

Edited

Good points
The US has been trying really hard for even short pauses for the last few days and I think there has been progress in putting that in place
Let's see if it does happen

WarmWinterSun · 07/11/2023 12:52

@HeidiInTheBigCity

In fairness, I think you are mixing up my post
and suggesting it was from @MrTiddlesTheCat

Efacsen · 07/11/2023 12:59

@Parkingt111 yes there have been a couple of mini/micro pauses on humanitarian grounds eg overnight in n gaza to allow evacuation of civilians

quantumbutterfly · 07/11/2023 13:16

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 09:46

It's saying yes we terrorise them and the world condemns us for it because we shouldnt even be there in the first place but they made us do it so blame them

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Who are we talking about?

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 13:22

quantumbutterfly · 07/11/2023 13:16

Who are we talking about?

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Settlers in illegal settlements in the west bank

HeidiInTheBigCity · 07/11/2023 13:30

WarmWinterSun · 07/11/2023 12:52

@HeidiInTheBigCity

In fairness, I think you are mixing up my post
and suggesting it was from @MrTiddlesTheCat

Thank you for pointing this out! Indeed, I seem to have got you and @MrTiddlesTheCat mixed up!

Mea culpa!

FOJN · 07/11/2023 16:25

Humdingerydoo · 07/11/2023 09:51

@Parkingt111
I'm not excusing illegal settlers, I don't agree with them. I still think it's a chicken and egg situation though as I remember well all the attacks that used to happen in Israel by people from the West Bank. The countless suicide bombers, stabbers, shooters. I remember my cousin going clubbing and almost being blown up. She survived, her friends didn't. Israelis haven't yet forgotten the existential threat coming from the West Bank for so many years

The first illegal settlements in the West Bank were built in 1967 immediately after the 1967 war. This is also important to note for anyone who thinks Israel have ever wanted a two state solution. The first record of Palestinian suicide bomber I can find is 1989. There were many suicide bombers in the early 2000's but that was decades after the start of the illegal settlements.

If you still think suicide bombers and illegal settlements are related (an argument you made) do you still think it's a chicken and egg situation?

Humdingerydoo · 07/11/2023 16:52

FOJN · 07/11/2023 16:25

The first illegal settlements in the West Bank were built in 1967 immediately after the 1967 war. This is also important to note for anyone who thinks Israel have ever wanted a two state solution. The first record of Palestinian suicide bomber I can find is 1989. There were many suicide bombers in the early 2000's but that was decades after the start of the illegal settlements.

If you still think suicide bombers and illegal settlements are related (an argument you made) do you still think it's a chicken and egg situation?

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Palestinians were entering Israel before 1967 though to kill Israelis. Guerilla attacks from Jordan and the West Bank were common. So I guess we're back to chicken and egg.

Twillow · 07/11/2023 17:00

Brrrrrrrrrrrr · 05/11/2023 15:35

It’s difficult when your neighbours are governed by a barbaric extremist party. The terror attack they committed was that of savage animals, truly hideous, how do you deal with that kind of devolved mentality?

Israel clearly has no choice but to do everything in their power to ensure nothing like that takes place ever again.

Honestly wasn't sure which side you were describing until your second paragraph.

What Israel is doing is beyond revenge. And frankly the population of Gaza, if there is one left, will not be grateful. Can you blame them?

FOJN · 07/11/2023 21:25

Humdingerydoo · 07/11/2023 16:52

Palestinians were entering Israel before 1967 though to kill Israelis. Guerilla attacks from Jordan and the West Bank were common. So I guess we're back to chicken and egg.

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So all Israeli violence/occupation is a justified reaction to Palestinian violence?

Who was attacking from Jordan? Why were those people there?

Occupying land illegally would be considered quite provocative by most reasonable people.

Humdingerydoo · 07/11/2023 21:39

FOJN · 07/11/2023 21:25

So all Israeli violence/occupation is a justified reaction to Palestinian violence?

Who was attacking from Jordan? Why were those people there?

Occupying land illegally would be considered quite provocative by most reasonable people.

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No, I'm not justifying any violence. My whole point has been that we need to stop blaming one side for everything. Putting 100% of the blame on one side is ridiculous as it's pretending that things are simple and straightforward.

I believe it was Palestinians who attacked from various places, including Syria, Jordan and the West Bank. Those people were there because they lived there 👍🏻 I mean, I see what you're trying to do - trying to get me to say that it was poor displaced Palestinian refugees. But it wasn't. Palestinians lived there all along.

Yes, illegal occupation would be considered provocative to say the least. That's got nothing to do with Israelis being attacked before 1967 though.