Anti Semetism IS happening

[AbsoluteYawns]

and in my opinion it's a direct result of people turning a blind eye to and excusing the horror of hamas and everything they stand for. It's allowed open season on anti Jewish hate. This has happened TODAY in France.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/04/woman-stabbed-lyon-france-antisemitic-attack-israel-hamas/

I'm utterly appalled at what Hamas did as well, but why are you appalled at Israel for fighting back? Genuine question?

How exactly do you expect them to fight back without inadvertantly creating civilian casualties in an area like Gaza?

Unless you think that due to the presence of civilians and their deliberate use as human shields, Hamas should have complete amnesty to continue raping and murdering from now until the end of time?

Not comparable at all. If Germany had kept GB under years of occupation, siege, murder, rape, demolition of homes, confiscation of land etc and then bombed 2m people it would most definitely have been a genocide.

@quantumbutterfly Pakistan was created after the mess the British made in India dividing a country and turning the people against one another. Prior to that Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists and Christians lived alongside one another in India. Us Brits have cause a mess across the world and glorify it as part of our history. In some parts of the world such as the Islands of Trinidad, Guyana etc the Indians who migrated prior to partition still enjoy a really multicultural community. Interfaith marriages between Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and Christians are incredibly common.

Are you appalled by Israel's occupation, their persistent documented human rights violations and illegal settlements that contravene internal law?

Other than 'occupation', which I take issue with, yes of course I am.

I wouldn't go on the marches because I wouldn't feel safe. I do have many friends who are marching, and I don't think they are antisemitic. I think the majority of the marchers are probably not antisemitic. But I do wonder about their ability to identify and call out the antisemitism that is undoubtedly there.

I think there's a cultural blindness to antisemitism, similar to the vast numbers of men who don't 'see' everyday sexism. Whatever you think about David Baddiel,it is worth reading his book to gain some understanding of this. Also 'People love dead Jews' by Dara Horn.

As if this crisis were not depressing enough, the sheer numbers of people who have the luxury of using it to close their minds further and enjoy some tribal posturing, whataboutery and ignorance elevated as piety is bringing me to despair.

Eh?

I'm talking about civilians dying in wars.

Of course Israel is going to kill civilians in Gaza, it's inevitable given the circumstances, but they aren't deliberately targeting them, unlike Hamas.

Allies killed many civilians in WW2 but it wasn't genocide. Germans exterminating Jews systematically was. The difference is really clear.

I am horrified at the antisemitism that has (it seems) suddenly boiled up around this country and worldwide. It's like you said it has always been lurking "under the surface" all the time. I am baffled that it is not being seriously addressed by our police force or government.

Next Sunday we remember all our armed forces and civilians who died in wars, including WWII. We remember fighting the naz1s who targeted Jews for persecution. Now I see exactly how we got there. Its chilling.

It’s very sad and alarming. I think stopping protests as in France would be difficult here. But there have been some arrests.

A lot of it is hard to police, it’s on SM, it’s on mn, it’s in every day lives for people. There’s another thread where a Jewish poster on the underground was told to go home to Israel

For me it’s not about the fact they are fighting back, but the way they are fighting back which appals me. I’m appalled by the fact borders have been closed so that nobody can evacuate; in Ukraine women and children were supported to evacuate and given refugee status in other countries, that isn’t happening in Gaza where almost nobody can leave with the exception of some dual-passport holders and severely injured people. And even foreign nationals weren’t able to start evacuating until 3 weeks into the conflict.

The amount of aid being let into the country is being hugely restricted so that significantly less aid is now entering the strip daily now that it is war zone than was entering prior to October 7th. Hospitals are without power and other basic resources which means they cannot effectively and humanely treat the injured casualties. Over half of the strip’s citizens have been displaced and people don’t have enough food or power. I’m appalled at the electricity and communications blackouts which mean ordinary people can’t contact family.

I’m appalled by the use of illegal weapons such as white phosperous and the bombing in and around UNWRA schools, hospitals, refugee camps, water tanks etc. I’m appalled Israel have been bombing the roads that could be used by civilians to flee from the north to the south and essentially making travel difficult and unsafe so that civilians are trapped. I’m appalled that they are indiscriminately bombing civilian areas and seemingly thinking the loss of countless civilians is worth it if at least a few of the terrorists are also killed. 67% of those killed are women and children so even if we assumed every single adult male casualty is a Hamas terrorist that means 2 innocent civilians are being killed in order to catch each member of hamas. Is that price really worth it? And in reality of course the number of civilians lost for each Hamas member will be higher as not every adult male is a member of Hamas.

I think it is understandable that Israel are retaliating and that they intend to wipe out Hamas, but I think that they should still be following the international laws with regard to war, I think they should be trying to minimise civilian casualties and that retaliation does not need to mean a month of heavy bombing to a nation where civilians have no escape and where literally nowhere is safe. A ceasefire does not have to be synonymous with Israel just walking away and leaving Hamas to do what they want but this level of attack appears to be more about collective punishment on all of Gaza With no regard for the safety or welfare or civilians rather than specifically about targeting and wiping out Hamas.

@quantumbutterfly Bangladesh was created as a secular state based on a common language after years of discrimination from the Pakistani authorities. There was no displacement of people already living there so it's not comparable to the Isreal-Palestine.

There are so many unevidenced and incorrect assertions in this that I don't know where to start.

Borders have been closed

Siege is a completely legitimate and legal tactic in war, also worth noting that Israel has nothing whatsoever to do with the border with Egypt being closed.

Evacuations have been taking place, but have been slowed considerably by Hamas attempting to disguise their own fighters as refugees in order to get them out. Confirmed by Egypt and the US.

Hospitals are without power

The hospitals in Gaza have been either running out of fuel or without power for the past 2 weeks, but every bit news of news footage shows the light still on and people eating and drinking with no issues. They also seem to have no shortage of fuel for their underground tunnels and their rockets. 🙄

Illegal weapons such as white phosphorus

White Phos is completely legal. The British Army uses it.

Israel has been bombing the roads

Have they? Evidence please. The only confirmed attacks on the routes out of N Gaza have been by Hamas stopping people leaving, again confirmed by the US and Egypt.

Indiscriminately bombing civilian areas

Evidence please. There has been no indiscriminate bombing. If there had been the casualties would be in the hundreds of thousands.

I think they should be trying to minimise civilian casualties

They are. Why else did they give over 2 weeks notice of their attack (putting their own forces at considerable risk) and routinely leave safe routes for people to move down?

Do you know isn't trying to minimise civilian casualties? You guessed it...

Propaganda on both sides has really clouded the actual debate. Everyone is shouting 'you're either with us or against us' which is unhelpful and overly simplistic. In the meantime the rate at which innocent people are being killed and injured in Gaza and the West Bank is horrific.

When anyone says 'what about the hostage?' I don't see either side discussing the hostages. If the Israeli Government wants the safe release of the hostages, its actions are really not helping - in fact they've probably bombed many of them already.

The hospitals in Gaza have been either running out of fuel or without power for the past 2 weeks, but every bit news of news footage shows the light still on and people eating and drinking with no issues. They also seem to have no shortage of fuel for their underground tunnels and their rockets

Some of the hospitals still have power and are still operational. 16 of Gaza’s 35 hospitals have however closed due to bombing or lack of power/ resources. That means Gaza has almost half the number of hospitals now, in wartime, than it does in usual circumstances. To me that does not suggest the country is in a position to effectively and humanely treat the injured, just because every single hospital has not closed does not mean that others haven’t been effected. The same with regards to food/ water just because people are not starving and experiencing a literal famine and just because people are able to eat and drink something does not mean people have adequate amounts of food and water.

I don’t know how you know how much fuel Hamas has for its underground tunnels, perhaps they are still fully operational or perhaps many of them are without power too. I do somewhat understand the argument for not letting fuel into Gaza but hospitals are also without basic resources such as medicines, bandages, anaesthetic etc

Who is marching in favour of hamas? I see a lot of people rightfully marching in favour of a ceasefire/end to Palestinian genocide, but not anyone who’s marching in favour of hamas!

You're absolutely correct that basic resources are becoming extremely limited, but again, thats war for you. Israel are doing pretty much everything they can to minimise impact on civilians, but it's impossible to prevent completely. Blame Hamas for starting this and preventing people from leaving with threats and violence. Numerous confirmed examples of Hamas killing Gazan civilians for trying to leave. Confirmed by US and Egypt, as well as independent media.

Of course Israel is going to kill civilians in Gaza, it's inevitable given the circumstances, but they aren't deliberately targeting them, unlike Hamas.

Well, that's an exceptionally naïve view of the matter, if I may be charitable. The Israelis warned, before they attacked, that they would be bombing hospitals, schools and shelters. They've also bombed bakeries.

It's what they've done in all of their previous wars, they even say that it's to sicken the Palestinians, to make them think twice or thrice, before attacking Israel.

In Cast Lead, they bombed and dropped white phosphorus on UN shelters, excusing themselves by lying that Hamas fighters were present, before finally saying, "Oh, maybe nearby," and eventually, "Yeah well? They weren't there, oops!"

It's what they do. Like telling people to evacuate to a defined area, then bombing it.

But you and so many others think it's inevitable collateral damage, because all you read is the Daily Mail.

Hamas murdered around 1,300 Israelis. So far, the Israelis have killed approximately 3,500 Palestinian CHILDREN. 75% of the casualties are children and women, which suggests that, if they're not actually targetting civilians,they're doing zilch under their legal obligations to avoid civilian casualties.

And yes, Hamas are a gang of reprehensible, degenerate psychopathic butchers.

I believe the poster means what posters like yourself do on many threads. I have called you out on this myself

After you decide to start readthe Jewish board the other day. Then post an attacking paranoid poster to one of the Jewish mumsneters on the Jewish board. I really don't think you are able to give a balanced view on anything antisemitic or Jewish related. You seem a bit obsessed with Jews to anyone reading your posts.

It’s absolutely shameful OP. God knows where all of these appalling anti-Semitic idiots have come from but I wish they’d all crawl back under their rock and stay there.

As for people saying that Jewish posters aren't critical of what the Israeli Government is doing, it's simply not true. We've had British Jews, as well as Israelis doing just that, but they seem to post less now, as they get stick for being who they are - even though they don't support Netanyahu, or what he's doing.

Small wonder they've gone quiet.

@AdrianaLaCerva there are many valid points being discussed in this thread. I understand it can feel uncomfortable to have these conversations but it's definitely not coming from a place of hating Jewish people.

I've never been described as naive about war before, having spent 35 years in the Army and conducted 7 operational tours but ok...

Do you accept there is a moral difference between deliberately murdering and raping civilians as the target of your operations, and civilians accidentally dying while enemies or terrorists are being targeted?

White Phos

Again with the white Phos. It's a legal weapon system used by every army in the world. 🙄

Which suggests that... They're doing zilch under their legal obligation to avoid civilian casualties

Have you ever been in a war or had anything to do with targeting? If they weren't taking enormous care to avoid civilians, the death toll in somewhere like Gaza would be in the hundreds of thousands. Give your head a wobble.

I see the person with the placard wanting a reaction as there is no other reason for doing what he did in the middle of a pro-Palestine protest.

Yes, he wanted a reaction in order to show that there were people on the march supporting Hamas. He got that reaction.

Anti Semitism and Islamophobia are both a huge problem at the moment - some
hateful people don’t understand that jewish people are not responsible for the actions of the Israeli government and some hateful people don’t understand that Palestinians are not responsible for Hamas. People are all the same underneath the skin - hearts, brains, veins, nervous systems etc… differences like religion, political believes, geographical birth place etc… don’t make a person less human or less deserving of life or basic rights.

Someone recently posted something which I think sums it up - in a situation with a child or someone pointing a gun at the child you should always choose the child.

The Israeli government are embarking on another land grand and using the atrocious actions of the 7th of October as justification. Gaza is a strategic location for them so they would like the population to leave - it is genocide. People are marching to object to children being blown up in their beds.

Here are some things to consider - half the population of Gaza are children. There have been no elections in 17 years, the majority of the population were not even of voting age in the last elections - Hamas declared themselves the government - they are not an elected. Even if they were should we (the civilians) have all been collectively punished for the policies of the Tories or previous government who have broken international laws. Collective punishment is against international law.

We should all be marching for the rights of children to go to bed without fear everywhere. The UN and WHO have both spoken strongly about the war crimes committed by Israel including bombing over 100 medical targets, bombing schools, refugee camps, shelters. Always choose the child, never choose the person holding the gun or dropping the bomb.

Indeed. It would be nice to see people calling out anything glorifying the hamas attacks or tearing down posters.
Feelings are running high.