Placards from antisemitic marches in London

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I had written this as a response to the other thread which was closed as it was overrun by antisemitic d**ks. As I'm sure this one will be too. They can't allow us to share the truth of what is being said and done in our own home towns and cities.

Look at these images. No, they are not in the minority or unusual. Here are just a few of many, many overtly antisemitic placards from Saturday's protest in London. (And a bonus one from 2021, which the lovely John McDonnell also spoke at.)

This is MY HOME. I am Jewish. My family fled pogroms in Eastern Europe and Nazis in Germany. Those family members who didn't flee were murdered for being Jews. And here we fucking are again. In London. And people defending it.

This is NOTHING TO DO WITH ISRAEL. These are Jew-haters, the faces of hate, the faces of anger and mockery, openly calling for Jews, for me, my family, my children, my parents, to be murdered, in my home city.

And people are defending it. How the fuck do you think we feel?

@andmeandmeandme thank you. I do think at times I could have and still can choose my words better, especially at the start of the war (sorry to anyone I have offended) but since then I have learnt so much from many posters on here.

Not sure I've said anyone of any faith has to have opinions, I'm aware many people live their lives in a happy veil of ignorance to the world. But surprised that in a major conflict I'm being repeatedly told that [most?] British Jews don't have an opinion.
To your second point, maybe it's sophistry but there is a difference between fault and reason, blame and explanation. Just to clear it up though, I do not think Jewish people have brought antisemitism on themselves!

@Parkingt111 If I'm honest, I think back in Oct (seems like so long ago now)! there were times I felt you were skirting the line a bit, but I think you've illustrated just how important respectful dialogue actually is and how we can all learn from each other. Also, there has been appalling antisemitism on here from many posters, which I've found pretty devastating to be honest, and I've seen you actively call it out. Merci.

You seem to think that British Jews have more of an obligation to give their opinion on the actions of a foreign government than non-Jewish Brits. You're holding them to a different standard.

And saying 'X is happening because Y didn't do this' is assigning fault to Y.

Ok please help me with this. What is the relationship of Israel to British Jews? Is it simply one of any other foreign country? I thought it had more signficance than that aka Jewish Homeland. Or if one has no family there and has never visited, is it less significant?

@Twillow But surprised that in a major conflict I'm being repeatedly told that [most?] British Jews don't have an opinion.

I don't think you're being told it's that they don't actually have an opinion (although I can't say one way or another that this hasn't happened), it's more that Jewish people shouldn't be obliged to give their opinion.

I've lost count the amount of times in my adult life I've been asked, very negatively, "what's your view on Israel". And not just during times of conflict. It's tiresome and often excruciating to be honest, and at times has come across like I'm being held to account for whatever Israel's being doing (which is actually antisemitism). I've actually told my non-Jewish DH on many occasions not to mention I'm Jewish when we're out around strangers just to avoid this scenario. I am Jewish by ethnicity only, have never visited there or had any strong feelings on Israel either way, so why should I give my views on it unless I bring it up myself? The only connection I have with Israel is that I just see it as a country that would take me in if I had to flee persecution. That's it really. And I suppose that's what makes me a shock horror Zionist.

That depends on the individual. But Jewish people do not owe you or anyone else an explanation of the acts of the Israeli government.

"That depends on the individual. But Jewish people do not owe you or anyone else an explanation of the acts of the Israeli government."

You're right they absolutely do not. That's what I don't get. I am disgusted by the Israeli government but it has nothing to do with the fact they're Jewish. I am disgusted by the actions of the illegal settlers but again my disgust has nothing to do with the fact that they're Jewish.

I can want Palestine to be free and for there to be a ceasefire and be against the Israeli government without being antisemitic.

Thank you. I completely understand that no-one owes me a thing, I'm sorry if this keeps coming across to you. I repeat that dialogue and common ground is always a way to peace, and that's why discussion is so vital. I've just been reading this report https://www.jpr.org.uk/reports/committed-concerned-and-conciliatory-attitudes-jews-britain-towards-israel 2010 so not too recent but interesting nonetheless.

I don’t even think Israeli citizens owe people an explanation of the actions of the Israeli government! I certainly don’t want to be associated with the War on Terror, or Brexit. I’m not sure why people assume Israelis have a hive mind, let alone all the Jewish diaspora.

Well, I do know, obviously. It’s antisemitism. But you get my point.

I am a Uk Christian and support the state of Israel. This is not just a jewish issue. it is a matter of the rights and freedoms of democracies in the West and Israel. It is about right and wrong and fighting to preserve our democracies in the face of a large number of enemies from Iran to Russia, North Korea to many other nations and even supposedly friendly countries to the UK like Saudi who do not have democracy. This is a vital fight and I hope Israel wins. However just as other UK Christians will have different views from each other similarly Jews have different views on the state of Israel.

Indeed some hassidic jews believe Israel will come when God says and do not recognise the state.

@Xenia This is a vital fight and I hope Israel wins.

See, as someone Jewish, I have a real issue with comments like this and have seen it repeated by you many times across threads, often in quite a binary, jingoistic way. I don't know what the solution is, but the death toll has topped 12,000 (?) now in Gaza and will grow further. How exactly do you see that 'winning' panning out? At the cost of every Gazan life? How can you watch these images of Gazan children and talk like this? You talk about doing what is right and wrong - what Israel is doing is wrong, it's not, as I keep seeing people say, genocide, but it is wrong. The scale of killing is horrifying and you speak like it's some kind of computer game.

So I find your approach pretty gross and in my humble opinion you are not helping British Jews with this attitude, quite the opposite if I'm honest. None of my Jewish family in both the UK and France are speaking in that kind of war-hungry language, although to be fair they are left/centre left pacifists. And that is despite the excruciating levels of antisemitism which is manifesting in a way we didn't think was remotely possible a few months ago

Just my opinion and as you say, others, Jewish and non-Jewish, will no doubt disagree as they are entitled to.

Hello again MN friends, on the advice of posters I've started a thread if anyone would like to join, it's about an interview with Israeli President Isaac Herzog yesterday.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4941761-opinions?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

@Xenia said, "This is a vital fight and I hope Israel wins".
@andmeandmeandme ' "What Israel is doing is wrong."

I can't tell whether @Xenia thinks that every tactic of the Israelis is good. It's possible for her/him to support the Israeli cause in the big way, and hope that they defeat Hamas, and also disagree at the same time with every tactic they employ.

I agree with you, @andmeandmeandme in that I don't see 'genocide' at present.

Of course I see horror, from many corners, and contradiction in statements from every side, but that's not surprising to me.

" the incidence of criminal behaviour was staggeringly low."
The incidence of criminal behaviour was staggeringly high actually.
It's just that the police were ordered to do light touch policing with the Palestinian marches and therefore the placards and chants which should have attracted arrests were tactically ignored. So here - the number of arrests do not correlate with some absolutely revolting, horrifying anti-Semitic sentiment.

Look at this here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12740393/Police-probe-pro-Palestine-protesters-pictured-carrying-anti-Semitic-placards-Armistice-Day-march-Suella-Braverman-says-sick-inflammatory-signs-display-mark-new-low.html

Anti semitic marchers carrying anti semitic slogans and calling for the death of Jews were given a free pass by the police who instead decided to kettle harass and arrest a few men who had done nothing illegal.
A woman was photographed carrying a picture accusing braverman and Sunak of being coconuts. Why do the police ignore this kind of racism and why are far left extremists ok with this?
Why do you think anti Semitism is not racism and why do you support 2 tier policing?

Israel funded Hamas. They knew exactly what they were doing.

You mean you think Israel knew Hamas would attack on the 7th and slaughter civilians and did nothing?

You don't think carrying a sign with a Star of David with a swastika on the middle is just a tiny bit off?

I don't much like the DM either but those pictures are obviously real.

Because focusing on the wrong-doing minimises the genuine sentiment and humanitarian concern of the majority. Because it would be impossible to arrest every dodgy placard holder - this will never happen at any protest anyway because a riot is not the intended outcome of a protest, hence soft-touch. Because the right-wing British media will largely concentrate on negative publicity. Because the gift of free speech comes with the risk of hearing/seeing things you don't like.

It's not in the image on the post so I haven't seen it - I don't need to open the link to see the kind of stuff the Daily Mail prints. Suella Braverman did exactly what she intended - whipped up a hate storm which attracted the lowest quotient (with a long-term view of heavier sanctions against free speech). To say this is representative of the majority of marchers is disingenous.

Not denying nor condoning the rise of antisemitism, just adding to it with a bit of your own.

You said you don't think any of the images are anti-Semitic. How can you know that if you didn't click the link? There are more than two in the article.

Anyway, here's a guardian link if you cN bring yourself to click that.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/12/london-police-investigate-videos-of-potential-hate-crimes-from-rallies