Placards from antisemitic marches in London

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I had written this as a response to the other thread which was closed as it was overrun by antisemitic d**ks. As I'm sure this one will be too. They can't allow us to share the truth of what is being said and done in our own home towns and cities.

Look at these images. No, they are not in the minority or unusual. Here are just a few of many, many overtly antisemitic placards from Saturday's protest in London. (And a bonus one from 2021, which the lovely John McDonnell also spoke at.)

This is MY HOME. I am Jewish. My family fled pogroms in Eastern Europe and Nazis in Germany. Those family members who didn't flee were murdered for being Jews. And here we fucking are again. In London. And people defending it.

This is NOTHING TO DO WITH ISRAEL. These are Jew-haters, the faces of hate, the faces of anger and mockery, openly calling for Jews, for me, my family, my children, my parents, to be murdered, in my home city.

And people are defending it. How the fuck do you think we feel?

Please re-read what I said. I know feelings are high but I haven't blamed Jews for anything, I just expressed my understanding of why this is happening given the unfortunate nature of human nature.
I don't know any Jews. So I can't have an opinion on how they talk about Gaza. That's why I'd like to hear this from Jewish people, British-born or not.
I do know a lot of British-born Muslims and while I would never 'demand' of anyone, they definitely did have opinions about your examples and would discuss it openly with me.

Please forgive my ignorance, I'm not trying to be goady but I don't really understand why it's a big ask to expect a Jewish person to have an opinion on the actions of Israel.

Because it is essentially holding Jewish people collectively responsible for the actions of Israel. Conflating Jewish people with Israel.

Why should a British-born Jew be expected to give an opinion on Israel?

There are plenty of Jewish people posting about the conflict on different threads. What do you want them to do ask mumsnet to put a little yellow star next to their username

You are being just totally off point coming to a thread about antisemitism in the UK and West then complaining that Jews aren't discussing Gaza enough. Frankly just start a thread about that rather than coming on this one and talking antisemitic fuckwittery at us. That is what saying Jews here are to blame for deaths in Gaza or for Jew hate on marches etc. Most posters will know I don't can people antisemitic if I can help it, fuckwits or useful western idiots I say a lot. However calling people antisemitic is something I hold back on, so you are honoured.

I do understand that it's a definition of antisemitism but I don't think I understand why, given the definition of Israel as the Jewish Homeland. For example, my brother has lived abroad for more than half of his life but still has an interest in British politics. Apologies @Trulywonderful if I am derailing the thread, it's just that this whole area has so many...threads. Debate is surely a good thing?

I think you need to reread your own post and try to understand why what you said is very offensive

Oh you know Muslims and have been talking to them. What do you want a prize or something. Muslims talk about this, Jews talk about this, Christians talk about this, most people are currently talking about this. Just because you don't personally know any Jewish people it doesn't mean Jewish people are not stating their opinion. It just means you haven't heard it. That is on you to start a thread or make a bigger more diverse group of friends, nothing to do with anyone on this thread.

Twillow

Debate is great and why some of us are on mumsnet. However time and a place for everything much like real life.

I do understand that it's a definition of antisemitism but I don't think I understand why, given the definition of Israel as the Jewish Homeland. For example, my brother has lived abroad for more than half of his life but still has an interest in British politics

Why should someone who has lived their entire life in the UK have an interest in Israeli politics?

Could you signpost me to a more relevant thread at all?

I'll bow out after this as I don't think my presence is welcome here, but as I said given the definition of Israel as the Jewish homeland it would be surprising to me if most Jews did not have at least a passing interest in it's politics. I mean, I'm not even Jewish and I have an interest in it (and other world politics). But I don't have any connection or experience so that's what would be great to hear from others. Hey ho.

A whole host of conflict threads talking about Gaza on this board and no I won't tell you the usernames of Jewish posters so you can spot them. People do tend to mention it in their own posts if relevant to conversation about the conflict. You will just have to read some threads.

Seriously?

Try clicking "conflict in the middle east" at the top of this page. There's stacks of threads.

I don't really understand why it's a big ask to expect a Jewish person to have an opinion on the actions of Israel.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to wonder if a Jewish person might have an opinion on the actions of Israel, it is offensive to expect Jewish people in general to answer for the actions of Israel by offering up their opinions on demand because you fancy a little chat about what “the Jews” think of “indiscriminate slaughter” in Gaza.

ETA @Twillow I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you truly don’t realise how loaded your language is but I really think it would help if you did a little reading on common antisemitic tropes and how they present in the context of Israel/Palestine conflict.

So in summary your saying yes it's bad that jews are being abused but they've brought it on themselves.

We see you!

So you know it's not ok. You wouldn't dream of doing it face to face (because you know you'd be held accountable). But when you get to hide annoymously behind your keyboard ...

Thank you @noblegiraffe and please keep posting. Until recently, I was a teacher and everything you post about teaching is spot on. Again, when it comes to anti- semitism, you are accurate and fair.

Thank you for your support and wisdom during these difficult times.

This is just an odd idea. Some people just aren't interested in politics that much at all, never mind in a country they've never been to! The only Jewish people I've met with an opinion on Israel are Israeli - which makes sense. If all the Muslims you've met have an opinion on Israel I find that kind of odd, and a little worrying 😟 All my Jewish friends (who are almost all non-practising) say they feel unsafe in the UK for the first time in their lives.

And sadly it is my belief that this behaviour will increase as long as we are forced to watch indiscriminate slaughter with so very little censure by the majority of Jews.

Yeah you kind of did.

@Twillow

In one post you say:

with so very little censure by the majority of Jews.

And in the next:

I don't know any Jews. So I can't have an opinion on how they talk about Gaza. That's why I'd like to hear this from Jewish people

The first quote does sound very like an opinion to me? I mean, I've given my own disapproval as have many, many other Jewish posters so this rings very hollow to the point of dishonesty.

Granted some Jewish or non-Jewish pro-Israeli posters have not shown much empathy towards Gazans and are, in my opinion, as goady as some of the pro-Palestinian posters, but from what I have seen they are in the minority, and most Jewish posters have been giving very nuanced views on the conflict and their attitudes towards Israel. Sadly, despite their balanced views, even they are not being listened to and are being met with rage or whataboutery and reported and effectively shut-down. So maybe it's just a case of taking time to read what they are saying and not skipping past their posts. If you actually listen to the finer points they are making I think it will become obvious to you that they are decent people with strong humanitarian instincts.

I definitely do think Anti semitism is on the rise. I don't think anyone can deny this. There are many reasons for it from blatant hatred to a lack of knowledge on it (not saying this justifies it) when I was in school ofcourse we learnt about racism but I don't recall hearing a specific definition on anti semitism.
I dont know if it was just the school I went to or if other people on here were taught about it in more detail.

Good morning. I don't feel it's an odd idea personally but maybe I'm not typical. I read the news every day (Guardian, Sky and BBC though trying to broaden that field). I follow the conflict in Ukraine because it it humanitarian and it will have possible fall-out for the whole world. I was anti-Brexit because I believe union rather than division with others is a good thing. I generally vote Labour but not sure they have my vote this time, but never Tory. I even like tofu!!
I've tried to put it in a different context to myself - such as the war in Ukraine: my Eastern European colleagues and friends do have opinions and discuss it (most support Ukraine but one believes the land is Russian and Putin is doing a good job). Regarding my Muslim friends, I was talking about the war in Iraq but I expect they have opinions on this war too - why should that be worrying per se (though I expect I could guess what side they would be on.)

We didn't even learn much about the holocaust, it was just briefly touched upon which looking back now I am quite suprised about. I read Anne Frank's diary when I was in year 7 but that was out of curiosity, it wasn't something we studied in English or History.

There's a difference between saying Jewish or Muslim people might have opinions and saying that they have to have opinions (and express those opinions) because they're Jewish and Muslim. And saying that anti-Semitism is the fault of Jewish people who don't sufficiently publicly condemn the Israeli government is on another fucking level entirely.

@Parkingt111 I think the official IHRA definition of antisemitism is relatively recent. While you're here, can I just say I've found many of your perspectives so interesting (I think you're Muslim?) and your willingness to engage in good faith with Jewish people with respect and understanding, whatever their view, has not gone unnoticed by me. I have seen the rapport you've been building with both Jewish and Muslim posters since Oct 7th and it's been refreshing to say the least. I don't always agree with you, but I do listen carefully to what you're saying and your input is appreciated. So, thank you.

Where did I say Jewish people were wrong to feel threatened? And sadly it is my belief that this behaviour will increase as long as we are forced to watch indiscriminate slaughter with so very little censure by the majority of Jews.

Wow. Disgusting. There is absolutely no reason why British people who are Jewish should be obliged to give an opinion on Middle Eastern politics. If you're inclined to make them in part responsible for antisemitism I'd say it's time to question whether you're antisemitic yourself.

Good morning. Of course it's not ok to attack others for their beliefs (though surely ok to disagree and question??) and I have seen this on MN as fortunately we have the capacity to delete comments which are vitriolic. I have listened to the responses I have had and not been, I think, argumentative. I may be ignorant. That's why I'm asking questions. But I felt like I was basically being told to butt out of this thread. Another poster recommended I read other threads rather than this one, and I did a little of that last night. I can see why Jewish posters might avoid them as most posters want to vent about Gaza. Most of these threads are echo chambers with no real dialogue between people of differering viewpoints. But that's human nature too...