To think Israel won't exist much longer?

[sergeantsalt]

Support in the west is declining, and when Israel doesn't have weapons and defense funding they won't be able to defend against their neighbouring countries on their own. AIBU to wonder how much longer it can exist given they are losing support?

@feralunderclass and * @Milkandhoneybees who followed up with: And the people afterwards encouraging this vile rhetoric and calling it a breath of fresh air. I honestly had to laugh.*

As I didn’t quote the same post you have here I’m sure you could tell I wasn’t referring to that, but to people disagreeing with each other whilst managing to have a respectful conversation about it. It made a nice change from the endless shoutiness and accusations (of which I’m sure I’m guilty). But that’s all it was. Please don’t twist my words and meaning.

It did seem that you were, but thank you for clarifying that you weren’t referring to that awful post.

OPs first sentence notes ‘support in the West for Israel is declining ‘
With the constant never ending bombing of innocent people is it hardly surprising.
Heartbreaking images from all news outlets on the ground of the bombing of an ambulance convoy with critically injured patients and medics as as it left Al Shifa hospital heading to the Egyptian border.
Of note the hospital had alerted all parties of the convoys journey
Patients and medics killed.

The latest country to recall their embassador: Honduras

Although this one was probably expected by many, Turkey have now recalled their embassador to Israel

@OhHelloTheres You say:
"But Israel has plenty of people of all those backgrounds and religions living there. They've not been forced to leave. Jews are not more important. Have you ever been to Haifa? Seen the Baha'i gardens? They're still there."

but when I read this about Haifa it just makes me so sad and it doesn't reflect what you tell us

“Both Israeli laws and city planning worked together to seize the property and lands of Palestinian refugees” and to “erase, destroy, deform and privatize the Arab-Palestinian identity and characteristics of Haifa”, he said.

Never mind the refugees themselves "Abdi’s eldest sister, Lutfiyeh, however, was not able to return and remained at the Yarmouk refugee camp in Syria until her death three years ago."

In Haifa, Israel sells Palestinian homes as luxury real estate | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera

Has Turkey recalled their embassador from Russia yet in protest about Ukraine?

Israel has nearly killed the same amount of civilians in one month that Russia has since Feb 2022. (info taken from BBC) So maybe that's why?

@SomeCatFromJapan iv just had a look and no they haven't
What their reasons political or otherwise may be I do not know
What I do know is that even when recalling there are different levels
Above its stated for consultation on their concerns which includes 'not allowing uninterrupted and continuous humanitarian aid entry'
Which is a grave concern for many

“More children have died in Gaza since October 7 than from conflicts around the world in each of the last four years.”

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/29/more-childrens-deaths-in-gaza-in-3-weeks-than-annual-total-since-2019-ngo

I’d also be interested to know which countries have recalled their ambassadors from Pakistan as they begin deporting up to 2 million Afghan refugees back to Taliban occupied Afghanistan? Including the thousands of Afghan refugees who are at extreme risk of torture and murder by the Taliban and were promised resettlement by the US and UK for their co-operation. Pakistan is rounding them all up door to door and forcing them into refugee camps along the border. Which countries and international bodies such as the UN are loudly advocating for them and stepping in to protect their lives and human rights.? Does anyone have any more information on that?

Playing virtue signalling adversarial politics with people’s lives helps no-one. Why wouldn't these countries want their ambassadors to remain in place, surely they’d achieve more to progress peace and help the Palestinians with their involvement? It feels like they’re turning their back on the people who need them more than ever right now just to make a point.

Turkey has given three reasons why they called back their embassador to discuss.
All three are reasons to aid the Palestinians

Whilst I believe that your post was written in good faith, you are failing to acknowledge just how outraged and appalled other countries are with Netanyahu and the IDF.

Yes, what is happening in Pakistan is utterly appalling and I feel particularly sorry for the women and girls and anyone who has a mixed marriage. Terrible.

However, that kind of behaviour of ethnic cleaning is an every day occurrence in Israel and the occupied territories, and it has been like that for a very, very long time. It has now reached a truly unprecedented level of horror, and even Israel’s closest allies, such as the US and UK are telling Israel to act within international law and to be restrained.

Turkey has made some very strong statements against Israel, and given that Palestinian students nearly got lynch-mobbed by a group of Israelis chanting “death to Arabs” in response to the Palestinians throwing eggs, and numerous other videos of Jewish Israelis getting violently attacked for protesting peacefully about the government’s actions on Gaza, Turkey has very legitimate safety concerns for any personnel in Israel.

Further to that, do you really think that Netanyahu’s government would ever want to achieve peace? Absolutely nothing about his words or actions would suggest that.

They would need to tear out the deeply racist rot in Israeli politics, but unfortunately data about the youth in Israel is suggesting that Israeli citizens are becoming more to the far-right, not less.

I believe hugely increasing the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza outweighs Israeli concerns about possible arms smuggling and Hamas “redistribution” of supplies in aid convoys, but I fail to see how cutting diplomatic ties and recalling ambassadors aids this process in any way. It’s just meaningless antagonistic posturing calculated to provoke the same belligerent response as always from Netanyahu. Isolationist policies only serve to bolster Netanyahu’s narrative that only Israel will do what takes to defend itself, at an unacceptable human cost. None of the many, many nations and agencies involved are willing to deviate from their established playbook when a radical shift is needed on all sides.

Maybe you should start a separate thread on this and those MNs that are interested may be able to enlighten you.

This thread is a different subject

That is if you’re really interested rather than deflecting.

Israel has nearly killed the same amount of civilians in one month that Russia has since Feb 2022. (info taken from BBC) So maybe that's why?

Maybe. Or maybe, just possibly, it's ideologically driven given Turkey's good relationship with Putin?

I’d also be interested to know which countries have recalled their ambassadors from Pakistan as they begin deporting up to 2 million Afghan refugees back to Taliban occupied Afghanistan? Including the thousands of Afghan refugees who are at extreme risk of torture and murder by the Taliban and were promised resettlement by the US and UK for their co-operation

Iran is about to expel several million as well.

The thread title is “To think Israel won’t exist much longer”. I’m talking about how Israel can continue to exist within the confines of long established antagonistic, adversarial politics, ineffective posturing diplomacy and actions designed to prolong and exacerbate conflict on all sides. The nature of which dominates any attempts at positive, meaningful change.
What do you think the subject of this thread is?

Agreed

It is one of those sadly impossible threads.

Israel has and had no choice but to defeat enemies - as in every war since independence - because they know that if it ever comes even close to losing - to the formation of a new state of Palestine where Israel currently is (e.g. a new country with majority Muslim population), then the current population of Israel (80% Jewish, 20% Muslim+Christian+other - side note that minorities who accept state of Israel have Arabic as formal language, and more rights than anywhere else in ME - including freedom of expression and all sexual and identity rights. You have arab-israeli chief lord justices, generals etc etc) will be eradicated.

A population with a history of attempts at its eradication, outnumbered 10 to 1, on a tiny strip of land which is the only place they call home - is quite obviously stuck in an impossible position and will not cave in.

It seems very difficult for all those chanting "River to sea" to understand this point - Palestine instead of Israel will be a massacre of the entire population of Israel - 7th October reminded the Israeli population of this.

And Israel knows this and behave accordingly - there will be civilian deaths in Gaza as they try to end Hamas. Hamas buries itself amongst civilians and builds it's infrastructure within civilian areas.

If there was no Hamas, there would be no conflict right now.

Probably the only practical solution I've ever seen was that suggested by an Israeli billionaire - build industrial areas with jobs (akin to Marshall plan). His point was that once people have jobs, they have meaning, and suddenly the wanting to be terrorists falls away.

It is tragic.

Pertaining to Israel's continued existence if in doubt to those who do not think she should exist; how come a ceasefire is being demanded of Israel, but it was Hamas that both broke the previous one and has stated that it will continue doing so by stating that contain nued terror towards Israel is going to be Hamas's MO?
So why would any sensible person think that a "ceasefire" wouldn't benefit Hamas more than Israel or Gazans who the Hamas leadership have already stated are and will be righteous collateral damage to its aim of destroying Israel?
So tell me without gaslighting me why anybody wouldn't seek to destroy an enemy whose sole aim is to destroy me and mine to the point that they do not care if their own die , too? Why would I have to care more about those whose leadership prefer them as dead martyrs , whilst I want me and mine to live?
Sorry, but calling for a ceasefire between a valid nation and a deathcult who started this war seems to be an attempt at appeasement that even Chamberlain would laugh at.
At least Hitler at the time of Chamberlain made out as if he had a sense of reason . Hamas aren't even trying to style out as if they are wolves in sheep's clothing. They are saying that they are worse than wolves .
I think that partisan Pro Palestinian supporters would be better spending their energy protesting Hamas.....if they really care about Gazans.

I see the advantages of a ceasefire as:
Much more likely to retrieve hostages. Israel may have to return the Palestinian children who it is alleged are being tortured and abused in Israeli military jails. I'm sure you would agree, it would be a good idea to have these children seen by doctors and the claims investigated.
Much safer to retrieve hostages without active bombing and shooting going on. Much more likely the hostages will survive.
Allows the ICC and UN access to Gaza to begin investigations into the war crimes of Hamas and begin prosecutions.
Allows the UN to place peacekeeping forces in the area, and to have oversight of the political situation.
Prevents further civilian deaths in Gaza.
Prevents further soldier deaths for Israel.
Prevent a refugee crisis.
Prevent further damage to world economies and standards of living. Save the rest of the world from paying the bill for this war, or Israel itself being made to cover the enormous costs.
Prevent escalation into WW3

What are the long term advantages of continuing to attack Gaza, in your view?

@ketchup07070 I’d like to see all of those things happen too and very soon, I hope. However, a ceasefire requires both parties to cease firing. Has Hamas called for a ceasefire? Are they agreeing to one? The advantages you list are the outcomes of a ceasefire- both Israel and Hamas have to agree to stop fighting each other in the first place before any of that can happen. Hamas representatives have repeatedly stated their objectives are the annihilation of Israel and the martyrdom of the Palestinians in pursuit of that. Netanyahu is an amoral megalomaniac. Neither are conducive to a ceasefire.

@25milesfromhome I have seen occasional headlines with proposals for ceasefire. Hamas have requested the children before, and if Israel were to do any exchange, I think this is the most reasonable one to do. Netanyahu has also said he will agree to ceasefire if all the hostages are released. So, maybe the grounds for an exchange and ceasefire are there. The longer this goes on, the more stubborn and unyielding both sides become. It would not be easy to bring about, but it has not even been tried yet, so I would not dismiss it out of hand.

Israel will not be annihilated if there's a ceasefire. For all Hamas' ambitions, they don't have anything like the ability to achieve such a thing. Israel's significant defensive capabilities are relevant. Ongoing aggression has not and will not work.