To think Israel won't exist much longer?

[sergeantsalt]

Support in the west is declining, and when Israel doesn't have weapons and defense funding they won't be able to defend against their neighbouring countries on their own. AIBU to wonder how much longer it can exist given they are losing support?

From what I have read both sides have said yes to a ceasefire based on certain conditions
So Netanyahu has said no ceasefire until Hamas releases hostages
And Hamas have said they will not release hostages until a ceasefire is agreed upon

But that was a few days ago so I'm not sure if things have changed since then

@Parkingt111 What an impasse!

Hostages held by Israel treated inhumanely

Protest in Israel calling for resignation of Netanyahu

Maybe if someone sane steps in there could be hope for an end to atrocities

Horrendous

Israel has also been torturing Palestinians from the West Bank:

Al Jazeera, Palestinian prisoner groups and his family received the same information on what transpired: Israeli forces beat Hamdan, refused him his medication, and placed him under the sun with a bag on his head for long hours before he died.

“This is what happened based on the testimonies from the people who were detained with him at Etzion, and what his family have heard, too,” said Sarahneh, noting that Hamdan, as for the majority of people who are detained, was beaten in front of his family during his arrest.
…
Since Israel’s bombardment of the besieged Gaza Strip began on October 7, Israeli forces have also intensified their nightly raids into Palestinian homes, villages and cities in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem.
In the past 25 days, Israel has doubled the number of Palestinians in its custody, from 5,200 people to more than 10,000.

Most of these prisoners are being held under laws and military orders that allow detention without trial or charge.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/features/2023/11/1/he-threw-up-blood-palestinian-detainees-face-abuse-in-israeli-custody

IDF and Jewish settlers also tortured and tried to rape 3 Palestinians in the West Bank:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-settlers-alleged-to-bind-strip-beat-burn-and-pee-on-palestinians-in-w-bank/amp/

@Parkingt111 posted this to another thread about the 3,200 Palestinian worked who were numbered and tagged, then sent back into the no-safe-zone Gaza Strip:

Salameh said he and other Palestinian workers from the Gaza Strip were arrested and tagged on October 8 before being taken to Ofer Prison on the outskirts of the occupied West Bank city of Ramallah. They were summoned for interrogation and tortured on what Salameh described as an electrical chair for several days.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/3/arrested-tortured-and-insulted-say-workers-returned-to-gaza-by-israel

@SolomonEdGrundy Is that the same footage that was screened in Gaza outside Shifa hospital for public enjoyment?
That's great they've managed to keep the power on.

Thanks for this.!
Much more thorough than mine…appreciated
( As an Irish Catholic we all know about Thatchers detention without trial.)

They tried to sodomise them.

Wow this turned into an Al-Jazeera quote match quickly.

It's as though a TV station funded by the same countries (Qatar et al) that actively fund Hamas wouldn't have a biased view.... It's like quoting Russia today for international news.

Sure - Israel has always been so so so terrible - that is why Palestinian(Arab)-Israelis who accepted the state of Israel serve in the army, serve as chief justices (see Khalub), and arab-israelis enjoy more rights than any Arabs in any Arab countries.

And why 20% of the Israeli population is not Jewish and lives just fine. The Arab population has grown.

Those wanting a state of Palestine should ask themselves - why did Jewish populations across the Arab world evaporate in the last 50yrs as Arab nations became more relogious? Baghdad, the Maghreb, Iran... All once had sizeable Jewish populations. All basically gone.

What is happening in Gaza is tragic. But when Hamas showed Israel that it still wants the eradication of a state and a people - it new the response would be huge.

Israel has always said it would not accept violence against its population. Israel told people to leave Hamas strongholds. Other than just accept a massacre of its citizens - what could Israel have done? Hamas hides in civilian areas exactly so any reaction can be blamed as against civilians. It tortures it's own people and steals their collective wealth and aid. They are terrorists.

Hamas brought this to Gaza, and Hamas needs to go.

Israel has nearly killed the same amount of civilians in one month that Russia has since Feb 2022. (info taken from BBC).

That is absolutely shocking.

Largely because Ukraine evacuated civilian populations and their neighbours Poland allowed people to cross the border.

Hamas has rejected the idea of moving people to the South of Gaza, which Israel requested and their friendly Arab neighbours in Egypt are so supportive of the Palestinian cause that they concreted the border for 3 weeks...

Also Gaza is very high population density - despite the statements of genocide, population growth has been one of highest in the world since 1960. Eastern Ukraine is not a high density area.

A bit of thought as to why the civilian casualties are so high would be helpful.

But analysis never helped sensationalist headlines.

Oh you're right, now I think about it it's perfectly logical.
I feel so much better.

Deaths matter.

But so does logic if you're trying to make statements of comparison.

Comparisons are meaningless when non comparable.

Ukraine evacuated, Hamas didn't.

Poland allowed border crossings, Egypt didn't.

Ukraine fought in countryside (mostly), Hamas didn't offer to fight Israel in the Sinai.

Deaths matter.

But so does logic if you're trying to make statements of comparison.

Comparisons are meaningless when non comparable.

Ukraine evacuated, Hamas didn't.

Poland allowed border crossings, Egypt didn't.

Supportive Slavic nations took huge numbers of refugees - Arab states have not.

Ukraine fought in countryside (mostly), Hamas didn't offer to fight Israel in the Sinai.

Maybe the Palestinians don’t want to go to Egypt because that’s not their home. Also they were asked to leave the north but Israel still bombed the south as well. There is no escape for the Palestinians. Israel has been stealing their land and homes for decades

I think it's convenient for the Israeli government that Hamas are so difficult to see-nobody can disprove what they say when they bomb ambulances and refugee camps. Oh but Hamas were hiding inside, we hear. I can't help thinking "hmm. Maybe they were. Maybe they weren't."

Well they can't go to Egypt because the friendly Arab brothers there don't want them. It wasn't a choice. It was only US and Israeli pressure that opened the border to dual citizens and injured.

If your govt (Hamas) starts a war - a massacre largely supported by Palestinians (cheering in streets, flogging of dead bodies) - then you probably don't get the choices when the country attacked fights back.

Ukrainians didn't want to go to other places as refugees either - and the key difference is that their government didn't send troops across a border to massacre civilians. Civilians don't get many choices but to flee when their govt starts a war.

Israel wants to remove Hamas because it is a threat to them. Hamas are the defacto govt in Gaza - they are terrorists, misogynists, anti-gay, oppressive, corrupt and probably the worst thing that has happened to Palestinians. For some reason parts of the west seem to support Hamas because it is Palestine (it isn't. There were moderates in the PA before Hamas).

Perhaps there should be more focus on why the world doesn't need Hamas. Why the Arab states should stop supporting it.

But then, it's better to bash Israel... Wonder why that is...