Justifying the rape of women

[armchairactivist1]

Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
Post edited by MNHQ

Wow. OK then. I mean my recollection of the UK at the time was the terror threat was pretty scary.

If there are no comparable situations, how can you be so sure what the UK/US/EU would or wouldn't do?

Etiquette isn't usually written down. You can just see it from how others behave. Most people quote the poster they are replying to, and use an @ for an important question. I was just a bit confused as to why you would @ me to explain something, then wheni did @ me again to say you understood and disagreed.

I am trying to put this very clearly so you don't misunderstand. If I sound pompous as a result that's a risk I'll have to take.

If there are no comparable situations, how can you be so sure what the UK/US/EU would or wouldn't do?

9/11 killed far fewer people as a percentage than 7 October, and there was no torture or sexual violence, and the US went into both Afghanistan and Iraq. I don't need to tell anyone here what those death tolls were either.

Speculation.

Far fewer? Nearly 3000 died on the day, don't forget to add the ones who died of their injuries and of cancer, directly attributed to the events of that day.
But, because, according to you, there was no torture or rape, it is obviously not as bad as what happened on 07/10.
I also find it distasteful to compare and grade suffering. It is insulting to the family of any victims and demonstrate a blatant bias: as in, my people's suffering is worth than yours.
By the way, I fully opposed the war in Iraq and was pleased when the French government refused to join in, on the second wave of attacks.

Tbf the US / U.K. response to 9/11 gave an indication of scale

Far fewer? Nearly 3000 died on the day, don't forget to add the ones who died of their injuries and of cancer, directly attributed to the events of that day.

I said far fewer as a percentage. Ie of overall population.

As I understand it the response taken by the US and allies to 9/11 is now considered even by them to have been a mistake.

That’s why Biden warned Netanyahu not to make the same mistake America did.

This still doesn't make it right, no matter how you look at it.

It would depend on the politician and public pressure but atrocities that are that barbaric would be extremely hard to deal with

This still doesn't make it right, no matter how you look at it.

It does. There were fewer deaths per capita in the 911 attacks than the 7 Octobe ones, as the US has a far larger population. I don't know how to make it any clearer. Those are the figures.

Does that mean that the government of Palestine can now take eye for eye and kill as many Israelis as the % of civilians that have died is quite high ?

I think Hamas probably would if they could, and then some.

And the other day you accused me of justifying violence, which I clearly wasn’t as I had said a number of times there was no excuse for it! You don’t think that might have been a bit of a projection!

Do you honestly think that's a stretch then?

No - you have misinterpreted the OP “Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
this means that we cannot use the prior suffering of Palestinians as justification for the brutal atrocities of October 7th.
I assume you agree with that position?

“No - you have misinterpreted the OP “Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
this means that we cannot use the prior suffering of Palestinians as justification for the brutal atrocities of October 7th.
I assume you agree with that position?”

I definitely agree with this position. “We cannot use the prior suffering of Palestinians as justification for the brutal atrocities of Oct 7”

The atrocities cannot be justified.

End of thread?

I know this is slightly off topic - but it seems if you talk about the Israeli victims some posters think it means you feel ordinary Palestinians are responsible- I don’t. I support all the people who want a ceasefire and I am horrified by the terrible situation in Gaza. However Hamas bears an enormous responsibility for the current crisis in Gaza as they MUST have been fully aware that the consequence for their barbarity would be borne by innocent Gazan civilians . It’s therefore ironic that people who condemn Hamas get attacked by pro Palestinian on the March . Both Israelis and Palestinians are victims of Hamas .( and both are victims of the extremism of Netanyahu’s government)

I think the point is that being competitive over whose atrocities were "worse" doesn't say much about whether or not the Israeli response is proportionate.

I think it's disproportionate and I think the ultimate failure of the "war on terror" shows that this response from Israel is ultimately doomed to fail.

Which is why I think its wholly inappropriate to bring the rapes into the conversation in the way they have been.

Why have they asked people to justify Hamas' brutal rapes then?
Why assume people who are sympathetic to Gazans condone Hamas?

Not everyone- just the ones who won’t allow signs saying “Hamas are terrorists “ on their march

I think you missed the point of my post, deliberately or not.
Mathematically, you are right. Morally, well...

Mathematically, you are right. Morally, well...

I'd be genuinely interested in you expanding on what you mean, because it isn't clear to me.

My previous post explained what I meant. Comparing suffering is, in my view, morally wrong.
If you lost a loved one and I lost two on the same day, would you accept that my suffering is greater than yours? Would you think that is morally acceptable to say this to you?

Ah, you were just having a dig at my morals because I made a factual statement. I wasn't comparing suffering, as it happens. I was comparing the relative scale of the atrocity based on population.