Justifying the rape of women

[armchairactivist1]

Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
Post edited by MNHQ

I'm not saying there are degrees of rape, but there can be other aggravating circumstances, ie murder, torture, severe assault etc. And this has been the case here, and it has been widespread.

When I talk about the hostages I try not to (until very recently) post anything I wouldn't want to post about my own children. It felt like a betrayal.

People feel pushed though into saying these awful things not because they take some pleasure in it but because it feels like that is all there is left. Look, look at what happened in detail and how it has quickly been forgotten and misinterpreted. Those women have been forgotten.

I agree the vileness of events should be kept to this thread but I feel the exasperation in some people's posts. The upset and anguish.

I didn't say it was worse. I said bringing up the uk's inability to prosecute rapists and help women stay safe in the uk is not what this thread is about. And you know it. Watch the footage of Naama Levy and tell me what's the same?

I am not watching footage of traumatised women.

What's the same - she's a woman who's been raped . The most fundamental thing in common in my opinion.

I note you are now acknowledging people have posted awful things, but have not apologised for calling me a liar.

Do you know what? Without even looking I've found 3 threads today about the October 7th rapes (including this one).

Nothing about the hostages more broadly. Nothing about the families of the IDF soldiers killed in the war.

From the article I posted:
In the context of war, sexual violence allegations are used to bolster public support for hostility. Karen Engle notes that since the 1990s, ‘rape has come to be one of the most commonly invoked reasons for use of force’.

The victims deserve better than being known for this.

Before anything else: I know massacre and vicious rapes occurred on Oct 7. I know one of the released hostages met some IDF young captive women in the tunnels some of whom found her a mother figure and confided that they had been sexually assaulted. It does not bear thinking about what may be happening to these still captive women.

I do not think rape is justified whoever carries out the raping - including American soldiers who raped French women in the thousands when they liberated France. Monstrous Russians raping their way into Germany. English army rapists too.

This below however relates to a story about events related to two young girls on Oct 7 that had ended up being inaccurately reported and interpreted.

Kibbutz Be’eri on New York Times Sexual Assault Story: “Not True”
https://theintercept.com/2024/03/04/nyt-october-7-sexual-violence-kibbutz-beeri/

I just googled the other name they mentioned too - Gal Abdush https://mondoweiss.net/2024/01/family-of-key-case-in-new-york-times-october-7-sexual-violence-report-renounces-story-says-reporters-manipulated-them/

I plead with you to stop spreading lies, there is a family and children behind them

This is what I mean. Imagine the pain of losing your family to these atrocities and then having their circumstances of their death speculated on and used by the media. It's horrible.

@AdamRyan I believe your comments are relevant to the post and I to think the events of October 7th have been used as a way to shut down discussion about the Israeli response.

I do not believe you are lying, I believe that there are other people on here who wish to dishonestly control the narrative and that when conversations don’t go there way they resort to this type of name calling.

It appears once again that a discussion which is actually of great relevance is trying to be shut down. Some people are unable to understand that it is possible to both feel angry about the sexual violence that occurred, and also angry about the way that sexual violence has been used to justify further violence.

I am finding it difficult to know whether this is because people are genuinely so upset and worried that they can’t comprehend this, or whether they are intentionally and with care only for the suffering of Israelis, but not Palestinians, seeking to control the narrative.

Thanks for sharing articles and resources that support a not new belief, that rape is often politicised during war.

This thread seems to have got unnecessarily complicated. Whether newspapers have distorted the truth, as they always do, or things have been misreported in the chaos, as they always are, or rapes and sexual assaults have happened in other places to other people by other people, as they do, unfortunately, does not change the barbaric ferocity and deliberate sadism of the attacks of 7 October, which combined rape with utter desecration of the human body and spirit.

For many people, Israel's response is disproportionate. But talking on here as though that's a given is, in my view, insensitive to those who are living under the threat of more October 7s.

I'm not saying the article is biased in any way, but this description of the authors is interesting.

Rape is a very emotive and distressing topic. It feels ironic to me that you are accusing others of trying to control the narrative when I think that’s what you’re doing.
I think the thread was originally meant to remind people that the historic injustices perpetrated by Israel can never be used to justify the terrible events of October 7th. It seems to me you’re trying to control the narrative by switching the discussion to say that the rapes are being used to justify the assault on Gaza. I’ve never said that. I want a ceasefire. I think starving and bombing innocent civilians is a terrible response to Hamas crimes.
I just don’t want those who suffered on October 7th to be forgotten - Their suffering has not ended - either for the hostages or for the families of victims. It’s not politicising the topic to want to keep them in our minds

I thought you didn't want me @ you in anything?

@Limesodaagain I agree wholeheartedly

@Dibilnik of course it's insensitive but then that's the point for people.

I just feel it's unfair, we see so many posts on MN talking about how sickening the attacks on Gaza are, which of course is clearly true. But to bluntly describe them as disproportionate and/or unjustified strikes me as showing an arrogant and callous disregard for the suffering of Israel and the impossible position it's in.

I didn't say that, just wondered why you were tagging me in every post that was one line long. Its not the usual etiquette.

It was barbaric

So shocking, I can’t forget the poor people who suffered from extreme atrocities

This is the OP (from December):

Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?

This comes across to me as someone who clearly thinks the actions against Palestinians is a consequence of Hamas rapes. It's not a very balanced OP.

Over 30,000 people have been killed in Gaza, over half of them children. Gaza is on the verge of an entirely predictable famine, with children under 2 most at risk of starvation. 2.5million people have been trapped in Gaza with no way to escape for almost 6 months, moved from place to place like animals without access to food and water.

Damn right that should be seen as unjustified and disproportionate action in the 21st century. Especially by a western-style democratic country that's allied with the UK, EU and USA.

If those 7 Oct raids had happened on UK, EU or US soil, I am pretty sure the consequences would be at least as horrific, perhaps more so.

25th of October so you could say that they are traumatised from the event quite early on. A reaction pretty soon after?

@AdamRyan I didn't realise there was an 'etiquette'. I know there are talk guidelines but I am struggling to find anything under that.

Do you mean to sound so pompous?

The outcome is huge suffering but not escalating to other countries too much. The hard part is removing Hamas to install another leadership.

If Hamas were to attack again I would fear for the extent of reaction and what it would cause globally.

Oh really. I don't think that was the response the UK took during the 70s/80s/90s when there were terrorist attacks by dissident republicans on UK soil.

I also don't think the action the USA took after 9/11 was comparable.

In fact I'm struggling to think of any comparable situation at all.

I was living in Birmingham when the IRA used to blow things up. It was nothing like 7 October.

In fact I'm struggling to think of any comparable situation at all.

Exactly. Me too!