Justifying the rape of women

[armchairactivist1]

Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
Post edited by MNHQ

Realistically, given the nature of Hamas and their dirty tactics, and their clearly stated local and global intentions, how do you think Israel should respond without inviting more suffering to both Israel and Gaza?

"Hamas consider it their God-given duty to rape and humiliate female prisoners of war."

Sorry I haven't been following a lot of the previous messages but came across this and just wanted a clarification.
Is this something Hamas have stated or maybe implied? That God has allowed/instructed them to rape female prisoners?

I'm not sure, I'm just proposing it as a possibility based on what seems to have happened (see e.g. here; what happened to Shani Louk; firsthand reports from Nova festival survivors, etc...) and stuff like this, which might just be a random nutter. I can't pretend to have any idea what goes through their heads.

Ok I was a bit shocked and honestly offended when you posted the "god given" crap". But after watching bits of the video of that women I understand why you said this.
To clarify yes she is an absolute nutter. I'd say something a lot worse if my wouldn't be taken down for it. Please do not listen to the sick individuals, they in no way represent Islam, she has I think in points supposedly quotes the Quran to justify this position. Its absolutely wrong. There is no where in the Quran where it states rape is justified .

"You will find a people who claim to have totally given themselves to God. Leave them to what they claim to have given themselves… Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the spoils, and do not be cowardly."
These are the teachings of Islam.

While I do not agree with your "it is quite possible ..." worst possible interpretation ...

I DO agree with your take on "cultural knowledge, as well as mere vocabulary and grammar" matter in translation!

I DO speak Arabic ... and, for the record, this is my first ever time having encountered the vocabulary of captives / hostages / prisoners of war / etc. at any level of detail. I am trying to learn it as I go. (DO ask me how to differentiate between a battle tank and an APC in Arabic though - I learned that back in 2001, along with "what even is the difference, actually" on a conceptual level.)

But, from the transcript, the translation of the video in question seems to be:

“No, no, she is a [sabia], leave her, leave her, she is a [sabia]. Take her back, take her back, she is a [sabia]. Go back to your place!”

Whatever the actual nuances of "sabia" are - and I am trying to learn them; not that easy when you are doing it imposing on people asking "yeah, hi, so ... you know how we are friends and Arabic is your mother tongue and ... so ... like ... your people are being subjected to what is probably a genocide, but ... yeah, like, anyway: I have sort of a question on the nuanced meaning of one particular word on the grounds of one particular person posting on the internet"

People think you are bonkers when you ask them that, given the circumstances!

Oh gosh, please don't think that I confuse Islam with Hamas! I have the greatest respect for true Islamic principles. The Nova festival, as a psytrance celebration, would have been full of people who felt the same way: there are overlaps with Sufism (transcendent ecstatic trance, honouring the mystery that unites us all) 💗

Hamas and nutters like that woman are something else. They distort religion to serve their twisted agenda. And of course there are nutters on all sides!

Thank you for clarifying!

@HeidiInTheBigCity It would be really interesting to know the nuances of sabia, if you ever do find out! You're welcome to blame the question on me 😉

@Itsaharddlife I found the interviews with the Hamas terrorists grotesquely fascinating because they were so blasé about it all. But from 09:38 onwards, they're asked about violating Islamic law and one of them (Ahmad Majad Ahmad Abu Hamid) does look a wee bit sheepish about it. Or am I misinterpreting his body language?

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They sound so robotic.
10,000 dollars and an apartment for someone's life.

Yes, I was fascinated by their whole demeanour. I was trying to work out if they seemed to have been beaten into "confessions" or drugged, but on the whole they just seem fairly relaxed and matter-of-fact, unless I'm missing some unfamiliar cultural cues. At the end, they seem very bitter about being tricked. I doubt the promises of untold riches were ever sincere, but it was probably a highly seductive carrot to dangle in front of village kids with no prospects in life.

Does nobody care that the publication of such videos are in contravention of the Geneva Convention precisely because there is no way to tell if there is/ or to what level of coeration is involved?

Yes I was very surprised by how well they looked. I was expecting them to look terrified/beaten etc. Apart from the one guy who looked as if he was in pain (I wouldn't dare call it shame considering his actions) they all seemed like they were just having a regular conversation

I agree to an extent, but both sides are playing that game.
Similar to Hamas putting out that video of the 3 hostages blaming Netanyahu. Didn't israel claim they were coerced into it

I agree but im not defending anyone just calling out wrongs and there's a lot of wrongs on both sides.

The hostage vids are useful to a degree as proof of life but what is said in them is irrelevant

For general purposes:

Whatever anyone says while at the direct mercy of any power that cold reasonably be considered "probably not primarily interested in what they would like": treat as "potential coercion" and hence "extremely doutful".

Furthermore: the publishing of both hostage videos and of the interrogation of Palestinians ...

... these are, what "human rights violations" look like in practice!

In this sense: can we please not post any of them?

These people are all highly likely to be speaking under duress and/or having endured substantial abuse!

Please ask MNHQ to remove this video - can't imagine it's within their T&C to be infringing anyones human rights

@VeronicaM27

Read one woman's account of what she saw.
I have seen videos of women bleeding from their backsides/fronts being dragged around and passed around. If you search its out there. You constant request for proof is sick and shows you don't believe because Israel lies blah blah.
Stop being goading or unhinged asking if it exists - it exists. There are video records of a man raping a woman and whilst still inside her shooting her in thd head. There are videos of women taking back to Palestine and local residents having a go in a queue. Go look since you don't believe.
Why are women being so obtuse unhinged and denying this happened!

Interesting watch, the leaders of hamas left them to do it whilst safe in Qatar.

It’s very sad that some posters appear more worried about infringing the human rights of the perpetrators than those of the victims.

It’s very sad that some posters appear more worried about infringing the human rights of the perpetrators than those of the victims.

I had noticed that. There isn't the same critisism either for all the footage of blown up babies and children, and I highly doubt all will have been taken by their parents and posted with their permission.

Having read that link I see SM posts in significant numbers saying that no rape kits to take evidence if rapes so people assume it didn't happen, a woman recounting from her hiding place of another woman gang raped and then killed was dismissed online as a 'fantasist '. Its almost as if people want to dismiss the claims because they are Jewish or Israeli a bit like people deny the holocaust. Its bizarre that people so easily discount a survivor stating she saw rape happen. So whilst identifying bodies in the immediate aftermath, some 1400 ish of them because rape kits didn't get evidence of sperm it doesn't count .

This.

@Noelectricheating Exactly.

I don't know how any human can watch accounts like those from the Nova festival survivors and think they're just making it up. These are obviously deeply traumatised people trying to come to terms with unspeakable horror. As this girl says at 06:52, what's worse than her own experience is knowing how much worse it must be for the beautiful girls taken to Gaza for a fate worse than death.

I used to think "fate worse than death" was sort of a jokey euphemism, a bit like "lie back and think of England." But I can't begin to imagine what it must have been like to fall into the hands of the raiders on 7 Oct.

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I don’t know how they can deny it either

It’s distressing. I can’t see what would lead anyone to post as they do.

I believe the Geneva conventions are hugely important and its vital they apply equally to all.

Personally I have commented about blatant breaches by releasing videos by the Israeli, Russian and Ukrainian governments as well as Hamas.

There is no conflict with my horror and compassion for innocent victims on all sides and frankly its disgusting to suggest so.