Justifying the rape of women

[armchairactivist1]

Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
Post edited by MNHQ

I think you'll find that they don't apply to terror groups.

I’m more concerned that it might be fake, I mean who can tell at this point?

There are videos coming out of Ukraine with Russian soldiers saying Putin is an asshole. And videos coming out of Russia with Ukrainian soldiers saying Zelenksy is an asshole. And here we have Hamas saying the Hamas leaders are assholes…

Many years ago, in a very different life, I was married to a Jewish man. We’re rarely in touch now, but he emailed me last night with some family news. I asked him about the current situation and he wrote:

*Yep, antisemitism and Islamophobia are both on the rise and it’s worrying. But just remember:

1. Hamas are cunts
2. The Israeli government (and its far-right fans) are cunts
3. Almost everyone else in Israel/Gaza/Palestine is a victim of the above (and of history).*

I think that just about sums it up.

I’m sorry for not believing that a ceasefire is in anyone’s interests right now, but don’t get me wrong, I long for a solution.

Nova festival was a celebration of unity above differences. I saw a Middle Eastern peace negotiator saying that the only hope for a way forward is if the current situation is recognised by everyone as the lowest point below which we can go no further, a bit like alcoholics have to reach absolute bottom before they make changes.

If the Hamas interviews are real, and they really are disillusioned with their leaders, then perhaps there is a way forward after all. Israel’s leaders have hardly covered themselves in glory either, as acknowledged by so many Israelis. Can humanity find a way to say once and for all, “Fuck this shit”? If so, those kids at Nova were not dancing in vain.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-12724567/One-survivor-Israeli-terror-attacks-tells-incredible-story-hopes-peace-neighbour-shot-one-terrorist-grabbed-Kalashnikov-shot-dead-alive-series-miracles.html

Thank you for sharing the story of a survivor. Sadly, there are those on here who will not believe that what she says, babies cut from pregnant mothers babies tortured and killed, families slaughtered because they didn't see it. Others will say 'daily fail ' story so much be made up.
That mother bears testimonial to what happened, it was sick and twisted

Imagine leaning so much to one side that you bash the credibility of victims on the other side. They are just hateful hypocrites.

Ok but by her own admission she did not see these pregnant women cut open, babies beheaded. There is no one fitting these descriptions in the official Israeli victims lists. There is so much misinformation, and the Israeli regime is using this to excuse mass killings. They spread the 40 babies rumour, and then the backtracking was quietly filed away.

What her firsthand experience does describe is the Israeli army showing up 12 hours later and firing missiles into her house and safe room. The amount of civilian deaths caused by the IDF on the 7th is becoming clearer, from the firsthand accounts to the their own admissions of using helicopters to fire on festival goers to the tanks shooting missiles into homes and burning them down.

Did you actually bother to read what the witness said. At the kibbutz and shared over WhatsApp as it happened a mother screamed that hamas had shot her baby in the head.
She was there. She said' ‘I want peace but after this sadistic, perverted attack I don’t know if it’s possible. What they did was beyond words, beyond Nazis even. The most twisted, demonic creatures of mythology don’t come close to what they did.
‘They cut open pregnant women and killed babies still attached. They tortured babies and beheaded children. They tied people up then burned them alive. Even the Nazis wanted to kill quickly – these men took their time torturing children.
'They are the most violent organisation in the history of mankind, and this cannot be our future. They cannot be in the world we give our children."

She was there. That is her recount. You were not there. You were not there. You doubt her story. Why? Why is your hatred allowing you to not believe a witness statement?

Ok but by her own admission she did not see these pregnant women cut open, babies beheaded. There is no one fitting these descriptions in the official Israeli victims lists. There is so much misinformation, and the Israeli regime is using this to excuse mass killings. They spread the 40 babies rumour, and then the backtracking was quietly filed away.

I actually posted a Washington Post article on here which describes what happened to the pregnant woman.

There has been a further press conference now held in Israel with images and eyewitness statements detailing the sexual violence:

https://twitter.com/mrconfino/status/1724385046583234841

Welcome to 2023, where 'Can a woman have a penis?' is not up for debate, but 'Is anally raping a woman an acceptable protest against the actions of the Israeli government?' is something happily discussed on mumsnet.

I really haven't seen anyone discussing this. I fully believe that GBV occurred during the atrocities of 7th Oct. I fervently hope that those who carried out this and all the atrocities on that day are brought to justice. However, I do not believe it justifies the killing of thousands of innocent people and the disregard for international law as stated by numerous UN and human rights organisation. The people dying under the rubble are not the same as those who perpetrated the atrocities. Even after over a month there still seems to be a lack of acceptance that people can abhor Hamas and their activities, while still finding Israel's action unacceptable.

As hard as it is to watch, thank you for sharing. I think I owe it to all those affected to watch and listen. I hate thinking about all those women still being held and what is happening to them....

Why is your blind belief in Israeli propaganda allowing you to not read clear text?

She does not say she witnessed these beheading or pregnant women being sliced open. She’s repeated IDF talking points. She has not in any way said she was a witness to these deaths I’ve highlighted, it’s all “they did this” but without any firsthand account or names attached. What she did witness is the IDF bombing their location, after arriving 12 hours after they were first contacted.

A reminder that there is only one baby (sadly) listed in the official victims list provided by the IDF, no pregnant women indicated. Why are hypothetical beheaded babies more important to you than the almost 5000 Palestinian child death toll? We are currently watching incubator babies die in real time, but your thoughts are with victims who at this point probably don’t exist. And don’t say it’s “for privacy” - Israel’s government was fine sharing burning body imagery publicly until they were exposed as AI fakes. They are all okay with filming Palestinians being deliberately driven over for TikTok and showing Noa’s body, so there’s nothing to do with human decency here.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/12/hamas-planning-terror-gaza-israel/

https://twitter.com/mrconfino/status/1724385046583234841

The pregnant woman and the rapes are discussed in the above two links @Fancylike

I'd say stating categorically that these things didn't happen is as much blind belief as anything.
The ongoing minimisation of the atrocities Israel suffered, that started almost straight after the attack, has been sobering.

Israel’s government was fine sharing burning body imagery publicly until they were exposed as AI fakes

This in itself is incorrect. Here's one source but there's plenty more out there. Denying a murdered baby the dignity of acknowledgement isn't great.

https://interestingengineering.com/culture/expert-debunks-ai-tools-claim-that-israels-photo-is-fake

Why are hypothetical beheaded babies more important to you than the almost 5000 Palestinian child death toll?

What a gross sentence to write, seriously wtf. I'm sure everyone cares about any child dying as a result of any war, not just this one, but your denial of one sides suffering while you quote a death toll for the other... how do you know that figure is real??

Agree. Awful to see this style of posting. Really off

I'm dismayed that so few people can be bothered watching the Israeli accounts. The view counts on YouTube are quite low.

It's possible to piece together a coherent, albeit fragmentary, picture of some of the events. For example....

The girl you watched only survived because her boyfriend led her away from the bunker that was soon attacked by Hamas, who threw in grenade after grenade onto the people sheltering and spraying them with machine gunfire. One of the few survivors is this guy, who describes what happened
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Another survivor of that bunker was kidnapped. This news reporter realised, in the middle of an interview with parents, that he had seen footage of their son with his left forearm blown off, being taken by truck to Gaza. He waited until they were not on air to share the news, and the parents were so pathetically grateful just to see evidence that at some point their son was still moving with dignity (helping himself onto the truck although he had been left-handed), although whatever happened to him next is anyone's guess

Those who survived mention that this young lad, a childhood friend of the one with his arm blown off, protected everyone in the shelter by repeatedly throwing the grenades back outside the bunker. Unfortunately, he died in one of the explosions.
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I won't share the footage from this particular bunker just after an explosion that killed most of the occupants.

There's a general overview about the bunkers here. This is just one of many horrific stories.
https://news.yahoo.com/ran-bomb-shelter-safety-instead-151646860.html

Ignoring all this, and hammering Israel for responding to it, is like a massive collective gaslighting exercise that must intensify the unfathomable trauma of 7 October.

“Some of most brutal attacks occurred in Beeri, where militants cut open the belly of a pregnant woman and dragged her fetus onto the ground.”

So that’s the entirely of the “proof” from the Washington Post article. It’s editorializing, no source given, no victims names, no independent verification. From a newspaper that is publishing racist, bigoted cartoons and commentary, which also published the 40 beheaded babies claim without fact-checking.

No one is denying Israelis were killed by the Hamas terrorist group. Witnesses are confirming the IDF also killed civilians. But the use of emotive Israeli propaganda to try and win over a global audience and excuse its mass-killing of civilians in a long-planned ethnic cleansing exercise is straight from the Nazi playbook.

The Israeli government has been proven to lie about its actions over and over. Without independent verification, anything sourced from that regime and its army is not to be believed at face value. The only thing that can be believed from its officials is that they intend to execute the next Nakba, which is what we are seeing and is actually being verified by multiple sources.

Thanks again for sharing @Alcemeg it is true what you say, Ignoring all this, and hammering Israel for responding to it, is like a massive collective gaslighting exercise that must intensify the unfathomable trauma of 7 October.

I am horrified for all those impacted by the decisions of vengeful men who don't care about how many have to die in their stupid war, just so one of them can say, I won. Nobody wins. Both, all sides, are suffering. I wish everyone could remember that.

The Israeli government has been proven to lie about its actions over and over. So has ours, so has Hamas... everyone lies in war. Listen to the victims.

The 'problem' is that trust in the Netanyahu government and the IDF is so low that anything released is dismissed as propaganda. Is that antisemitism or is that because people are looking to paint Israel as a horror because of the last 6 weeks and the Nakba and the West Bank behaviour? I don't have an answer to that. It's probably a combination of both.

It must be awful to know that there's more trust in what Hamas are releasing than what Israel say because one is deemed a terrorist organisation and one is meant to be a democratic organisation. We may have 'better' proof from Hamas but that's because they release graphic footage of people's deaths without their consent, is that morally okay?

October 7th isn't propaganda and people shouldn't need to 'one upmanship' the horror. I truly hope that the pregnant woman and the dead babies and the torture and the rapes ARE propaganda. What people in the kibbutz experienced was 'enough' - it doesn't need making more graphic, or salacious FFS, people were watering their plants and eating their breakfast and they died. I said on another thread, Hamas had baked in that this was going to be Israel's reaction, they counted on Israel striking back hard against the Palestinian people. Hamas leaders will be revelling in this reaction from Israel. It's strengthening their position in the Arab world and creating lots of future martyrs. That's clear to see. I wish Israel could have come up with a response that was a massive fuck you to Hamas plans. A less blinded by rage and more strategic response that strangled Hamas not by force, but by thought. That ship has well and truly sailed though.

*13:47
Israel festival attack survivor says she saw Hamas rape woman

Lucy Williamson
Reporting from Israel
Warning: This article contains distressing content
Police have shown journalists a single horrific testimony from a woman who was at the Nova festival site during the 7 October attack.
At least 260 people were killed when Hamas gunmen fired rockets and then stormed the festival in the early hours of the morning.
Others were kidnapped and taken hostage into Gaza.
The woman described seeing Hamas fighters mutilate a woman while raping her, and said that one of her attackers then shot her in the head as he continued to rape her.
Israel’s police commissioner Yaacov Shabtai told the BBC after the briefing that this was not a one-off testimony. The nature of some of the violence was hard to speak about, he said.
"You heard how they cut part of the body between one rape and another,” he said. "So you understand those guys came to do something: it’s not the rape, it’s to insult the human being."
The commissioner also suggested that investigators were relying on footage shot by Hamas to determine what had happened in some cases.
Those involved in the investigation said many of the areas where the attacks took place were still active combat zones during the crucial 48-hour window when forensic evidence for sexual assault should be obtained.
DNA was taken from bodies arriving at the main army base for identification, but police say the main focus initially was on identifying the dead, and informing families.
The head of one unit charged with collecting evidence said there were "no known living victims" of sexual assault that they could currently identify, but many of those who survived the attacks are reportedly too traumatised to give evidence.
So far, there’s little sense of the scale of sexual violence carried out by Hamas during the October attacks, but a police spokesman said they were looking into “multiple” cases.*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67400490