Page 12 | Justifying the rape of women

Pennina · 26/10/2023 21:46

armchairactivist1 · 25/10/2023 18:56

@Dinkydaisy1 ok, I understand that there is doubt on both sides as to the credibility of sources, this is a difficult aspect to this situation. I watched a coroners report on the news earlier where they described broken pelvis' because of forcible penetration. But yes this was from an Israeli coroner, would there ever be an independent investigation?

I just keep thinking of the girl with the blood stained joggers

I keep thinking of her too

she77 · 26/10/2023 22:30

I would hope no one is justifying the rape of women. I think we recognise that terrorists commit horrendous acts. Sadly, brutal violence, including volence against women and sexual violence, has a long history in this region's warfare and elsewhere but I don't think we should pretend it is a method unique to Islamist terrorists or Hamas. It has reminded me of the reporting of the Deir Yassin massacre, commited by members of Zionist terrorist groups against Palestinians in 1948:

"Many young schoolgirls were raped and later slaughtered. Old women were also molested. One story is current concerning a case in which a young girl was literally torn in two. Many infants were also butchered and killed. I also saw one old woman who gave her age as one hundred and four who had been severely beaten about the head with rifle butts. Women had bracelets torn from their arms and rings from their fingers and parts of some of the women's ears were severed in order to remove earrings."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

Deir Yassin massacre - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

converseandjeans · 27/10/2023 00:35

@she77 so are you justifying Hamas raping women based on the behaviour of Israeli forces in the 1940s?

she77 · 27/10/2023 00:40

No, I have very clearly said I hope no one is justifying the rape of women!

converseandjeans · 27/10/2023 01:12

@she77 so why the link to that article?

BeebeeAbout · 27/10/2023 05:45

Having now read several articles from journalists that have viewed the raw Hamas footage, I cannot see any mention of a pregnant woman having her baby cut out. Something like this would have reported more widespread surely?

Fancylike · 27/10/2023 20:24

Gruntsandgroans · 26/10/2023 21:13

Disclaimer: don't read if you are sensitive to violent descriptions

I know I probably should get a life but this comment has been playing on me a lot today. Do you actually know how people are dying in Gaza? They are dying horrifically too. There was a boy, his whole face blown off, his lower body blown off and he was alive. I don't think I'll ever get that image out of my head. He was alive and they don't have proper medical supplies to treat him. Proper pain killers, anaesthetics, they are using vinegar on wounds and this young boy was alive with half of his body and his face gone. Gazans aren't dying like boom gone. They are dying from having limbs blown off then slowly bleeding to death alone under rubble. They are dying from being burnt alive.

I understand that Hamas inflicted horrific injuries on people and it absolutely isn't a competition but this comment made me think, do you know? Do you what is happening in Gaza? Just how horrifically people, men, women and children are dying? In a lot of cases it isn't clean and it isn't quick. Like I said I know I need to get a life but I keep thinking about that comment and thinking about the boy without his mum with no face and no lower body who was still alive and the people who think that this is somehow a preferreble way to die.

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I can never unhear the guttural moaning shrieks he made in his last minutes of life, throat blocked by his own mutilated flesh. Just one Palestinian child among the thousands to be tortured to death.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 27/10/2023 22:11

Fancylike · 27/10/2023 20:24

I can never unhear the guttural moaning shrieks he made in his last minutes of life, throat blocked by his own mutilated flesh. Just one Palestinian child among the thousands to be tortured to death.

Edited

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I have had the distinct misfortune - or privilege - of having seen this particular video!

There are just ... moments where you find yourself inwardly screaming "oh, dear god - whom, as an atheist, I do not even believe in - please let him die already, because death is a great mercy at this point!

That was one of these moments!

And I am saying this as someone who ... I am forever going to maintain that I "cannot stay out" but also "cannot stay neutral" because I have deep trauma from this particular war!

The very first dead body I have ever seen was not what it was supposed to be: my "peacefully died in their sleep" grandparent (that DID happen, later ... I was so triggered that I went into a screaming fit). It was a 10-year-old Palestinian child who looked so perfectly peaceful except for that little bullet hole on his forehead (from the front) - and the entire back of his head was missing! (That'll be what so-called "dum-dum" ammunition does ... it's designed to inflict maximum damage by starting to spin within the target's body, maximising damage. It's PERFECTLY LEGAL to use this type of ammunition in war. My appeal is AGAINST THAT! THIS should not be perfectly legal!)

We are GOING TO HAVE TO find better ways of dealing with conflict than THAT!

Lavender14 · 27/10/2023 22:23

converseandjeans · 27/10/2023 01:12

@she77 so why the link to that article?

@converseandjeans I think the point they were making is that rape is an ugly side of war and its a global epidemic as part of the epidemic of violence against women. Its not about a particular group who set out because they want to rape women, its a problem with men and how they view women and that then plays out in the ugliest ways in any conflict. Her point is purely that it's not unique to hamas so why call it out in this instance but not in other conflicts in the same way.

I would imagine in part it's because of the level of reporting in this particular instance means people have had a more visual connection to it and are therefore feeling more personally affected. Plus its happening in real time rather than conflicts that have been ongoing for many many years or have happened in the past. I saw no justification for what happened in their post. And I think this is where things are getting misinterpreted as justification rather than discussion of global context.

she77 · 27/10/2023 22:38

Thank you Lavender.

I agree with the OP that women so often suffer at the hands of men during conflicts and that rape and volence against women is used as a method of warfare. It is not justifiable and it is not unique to this conflict or to Hamas. Sadly, however, there is a history of brutality against civilians, including women and children, in this region and the 7 October attack reminded me of the Zionist terrorist attack against Palestinians at Deir Yassin, as cited. Anyone with any humanity should consider all brutality against any civilians abhorrent, whatever the political or idealogical aim and whoever the perpetrator or the victim. I don't think this position should be contraversial in any way and I don't think seeing brutality against one group of civilians should make you blind to the brutality against another.

bythebanksof · 28/10/2023 11:55

To move this discussion away from what is happening today in Middle East, it might be valuable to look at other instances in the past, so not directly related to our "positions" taken in the conflict today (I'm generally pro-Israel). There is a lot written on the Nanjing Massacre, and with both sides claiming to minimize and maximize what happened.

The reality is that this happens in conflicts. We've seen it even in Western armies, the US in Vietnam being a notable example (and of course we have a long history too, I'm English).

Pennina · 09/11/2023 09:18

To those who wondered about the girl with the bloodied grey joggers. She is called Naama Levy and is 19 years old. More info about Naama is attached. Naama and the rest of the hostages remain in my thoughts.

Original poster

armchairactivist1 · 09/11/2023 09:24

@Pennina thank you for sharing. This is a young lady who is an actual activist and has worked with members of both communities to try to build relationships and forge peace and you've got privileged idiots a million miles away who think they stand for peace and claim to be activists tearing down her poster.

OP posts:

thedevilsgift · 09/11/2023 09:27

armchairactivist1 · 09/11/2023 09:24

@Pennina thank you for sharing. This is a young lady who is an actual activist and has worked with members of both communities to try to build relationships and forge peace and you've got privileged idiots a million miles away who think they stand for peace and claim to be activists tearing down her poster.

Absolutely this!

JustAMinutePleass · 09/11/2023 09:45

Rape is used as a weapon by both sides of the conflict: eg the IDF is currently investigating Israeli soldiers gangraping an 11 yo Palestinian girl who was taken in custody. I personally think it’s abhorrant - another example of women being punished for the actions of men.

But in general, beyond this specific conflict, rape is weaponised anyway during times of conflict. I’ve heard some real horror stories from girls and women who fled the Congo, for example, and it frustrates me that people in the west / western media only ever decide to step up and call it out for white / white passing women.

Pennina · 09/11/2023 10:08

JustAMinutePleass · 09/11/2023 09:45

Rape is used as a weapon by both sides of the conflict: eg the IDF is currently investigating Israeli soldiers gangraping an 11 yo Palestinian girl who was taken in custody. I personally think it’s abhorrant - another example of women being punished for the actions of men.

But in general, beyond this specific conflict, rape is weaponised anyway during times of conflict. I’ve heard some real horror stories from girls and women who fled the Congo, for example, and it frustrates me that people in the west / western media only ever decide to step up and call it out for white / white passing women.

This was in 2006. Do you know what the result of the enquiry was?

Creatingusernamesismygame · 09/11/2023 10:08

HermioneWeasley · 25/10/2023 18:57

People seem not to have read the OP.

women are normally horrified by rape, including rape as a war crime. Hamas raped women and children so violently they broke their pelvises. Nothing Israel has done or could ever do could possibly justify this, but this thread shows posters dismissing, minimising and saying they don’t believe the Israeli reports, despite Hamas’s own footage showing horrendous atrocities (but we all know Jews are sneaky and devious, don’t we?).

What main stream media like to do is make up propaganda and create fake news about Hamas. They need to make them look as evil as possible. The only problem is they never have any real evidence to back the claims. Yes the attacks and murders happened on the 7th of October, but there is no evidence of babies killed in ovens, beheaded, women raped etc. zero evidence from independent agencies. Yes the Israeli government makes these claims but they are liars and ordinary sane people have stopped belonging their bullshit. An army that commits genocide of innocent babies and unarmed children cannot be believed. No sane person can believe the words of racist murders. They are criminals. We don’t trust criminals.

There are similars claims from the other side. The Palestinians saying that their women and children are raped but the idf. But you never hear them taken seriously. No one creating thread about those claims.
Some people don’t even believe that Palestinians babies have died despite there being thousands of videos and images.
Little point in creating random threads with claims made by the Israeli government. Other than mumsnet, the vast majority world doesn’t trust them. Hard to trust anyone who can stand there and continue to ethnic cleanse Muslims and murder innocent babies regardless of what happened in the past.

notsoready4school · 09/11/2023 10:14

armchairactivist1 · 25/10/2023 18:35

Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
Post edited by MNHQ

That is just a stupid justification for the mass killing of innocent children. Are you saying that no members of the IDF or none of the men in Israel rape women? Or even that there isn’t a single rapist in the leadership of Israel government. What exactly is your point? At least they do it quietly without getting the press involved!?

Xenia · 09/11/2023 10:24

Hamas is worse than Israel. Hamas is terrorist. Israel is a legitimate state which thankfully the UK and US support. Israel is on the side of democracy.

However in war innocent people are killed. Israel is going bit by bit through the tunnels and is not deliberately trying to kill innocent people. Indeed it warned right at the start when Gaza had full telecoms that everyone should leave the Northern half.

Israel has 9m people (and Gaza about 2m about half of which are under 18 as it is one of the youngest populations on earth). There are about 3m on the West Bank. I have always favoured a two state solution which Israel has proposed but as the enemy wants Israel eradicated and no Israel there has been no choice but to continue with Israel as Israel and the West Bank and Gaza not a separate country.

TomeTome · 09/11/2023 10:35

People who kill other people are not good people. This idea that Isreal is not as bad as Hamas because XXXXXXXX is nonsense. They are killing people EVERY day.
The only reason a “two state” solution is suggested is because Israelis insist treating Palestinian lives as less. They seem to operate a system where your religion dictates how worthy you are. In the rest of the world we don’t really ever endorse that view.

VeronicaM27 · 09/11/2023 10:43

amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/may/02/israel

"At least 17 soldiers and five civilians are under investigation for the rape of an 11-year-old girl at an Israeli air base, the military confirmed yesterday."

This happened in 2006. Would this have justified bombing the shit out of Israeli civilians?

Creatingusernamesismygame · 09/11/2023 10:46

Xenia · 09/11/2023 10:24

Hamas is worse than Israel. Hamas is terrorist. Israel is a legitimate state which thankfully the UK and US support. Israel is on the side of democracy.

However in war innocent people are killed. Israel is going bit by bit through the tunnels and is not deliberately trying to kill innocent people. Indeed it warned right at the start when Gaza had full telecoms that everyone should leave the Northern half.

Israel has 9m people (and Gaza about 2m about half of which are under 18 as it is one of the youngest populations on earth). There are about 3m on the West Bank. I have always favoured a two state solution which Israel has proposed but as the enemy wants Israel eradicated and no Israel there has been no choice but to continue with Israel as Israel and the West Bank and Gaza not a separate country.

Israel are probably worse because they hide behind being a legitimate state and think they can legitimise ethnic cleansing.

Alcemeg · 09/11/2023 10:47

VeronicaM27 · 09/11/2023 10:43

amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/may/02/israel

"At least 17 soldiers and five civilians are under investigation for the rape of an 11-year-old girl at an Israeli air base, the military confirmed yesterday."

This happened in 2006. Would this have justified bombing the shit out of Israeli civilians?

Well, no, not least because the girl in question was Israeli:

"According to reports in the Israeli media, the girl - whose father is a non-commissioned officer in the army - was living with her family at an air base in the south of Israel. She began to have sex with soldiers and workers at the base from the age of 11 until the age of 14. [...] The soldiers questioned in the case said that the girl told them she was 16 or 17, and that they had no idea of her real age. [...] The girl's family has since moved from the base and she has been in hospital several times for psychiatric illness, the reports said."

Original poster

armchairactivist1 · 09/11/2023 10:50

@notsoready4school what exactly is your point? How did you get to me saying there's no rapists in the Israeli government? And if there is, does that justify it to you?

My post has been edited but my original, longer post was referring to feminists who have described 7/10 as 'necessary' and I was asking how people who seemingly always stand for women's rights and are very strongly anti violence against women can take this stance.

It is possible to condemn someone's actions without having to shout what about what you've done and you can have sympathy for both innocent sides in this. You can hold space in your heart and head for both

OP posts:

VeronicaM27 · 09/11/2023 10:55

There's a lot of people using the rapes of women and beheading of babies etc to justify what Israel is doing. Correct me if I'm wrong but there's no actual evidence that these things happened. I'm not saying they didn't happen but I'm going to need more proof than the Israeli government saying so. They're well known to use propaganda.