If you are pro Israel when is enough killing enough?

[TakeMe2Insanity]

Plenty of people have repeated “1400 Israeli’s were killed on 7/10”, but when is actually enough? The count is above 5000 in Gaza alone. Seriously when is enough enough?

On the questoin of the thread - how far do we go to defend democracy against those who would impose a different system on us I mentoined bomb Dresden and the nuclear bomb in WWII as how far the UK might go (with my support too). I don't agree with the person saying the nuclear bomb was a bad thing. We had no choice and it brought WWII to an end in effect and has secured peace in the US/UK/Europe in terms of most war (other than a bit of an IRS and ISIS Al Q attacks on home soil) ever since - it saved countless lives.

That’s where people disagree unfortunately.

As I said in the post, it's a twitter thread I posted earlier from a French Jewish man who was raised in a Zionist household and community. It's his perspective not mine. But it did help me to understand some of the Zionist posters here a little and why they believe what they believe.

Where do you evacuate c2m Palestinians to? They are currently kept in a prison (well worse) - Israel controls whether they can leave Gaza and dictates if and when food, water, electricity and medical supplies are delivered to them.

For the person who said they were in favour of the nuclear bomb for the greater good in society. I think in years gone by I could understand that stance as it was so far removed from people but now we see drone footage of destruction, live streams of doctors begging for information on how to treat new 4th degree burns on impact - saying new weapons have been used, watching trauma in adults in children in babies.

I believe this blockade has gone too far and Israel believes in total obliteration of the Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank.

Because a ceasefire now would allow Hamas to kill tens of thousands of innocent people in the future. Is that what you want?

Would you prefer Hamas to be allowed to continue their mission to kill all Infidels - including you and your family?

With all due respect - this is hyperbolic bullshit! And, for the sake of all of us - mostly Israelis and Palestinians, but ultimately ALL OF US Id would be greatly appreciated if you could stop fanning the flames to push propaganda!

Actually ... YES! Hamas are pretty fucking horrible! Homicidal war criminals, that kind of thing. You know: stuff that makes every semi-normal human recoil in horror!

But also: they are, ultimately, a nationalist movement. Islamist, sure! But also: nationalist!

In this sense, Hamas is a lot more like the Taliban and a lot less like the IS or al-Qaeda. (And ... before you even try: yes, I have read the 1988 charter - I have also read the 2017 one that, essentially, boils down to "we would never say so but: we could sort of get behind a 2-state solution, except we would obviously have to claim that we vehemently object").

None of this is meant to excuse Hamas. But: there is just no actual benefit - beyond propaganda value - of painting them as something they are not!

Hamas could not possibly care less about whether or not some random family in, say, Brisbane, Australia, is Jewish, Christian, Muslim or Wiccan - or altogether atheist! They very much WOULD want a) all of historical Palestine to be restored to Palestinians (never happening - and, on some level: they know this! See above!), and b) for this resulting state to be islamist!

But Hamas is NOT a globalist force! Again, they are ultimately islamist nationalists!

And the one and only reason I am posting this - for the UMPTEENTH time: I do not support them!!! - is: it serves absolutely NOONE AT ALL (except, perhaps, specifically Netanyahu, as he is scrambling to salvage his lifetime legacy and his freedom from prison on charges of corruption!) to pretend otherwise!

Fewer Israelis will die, if we stay sane! Fewer Palestinians will die, if we stay sane!

Right now, we are all ... sitting on a powder keg, quite frankly! And, cheerleading for "yay, more sparks!" is just, literally, not going to make anyone safer! And, yes, I am ABSOLUTELY including Israeli Jews in that! There is NO WAY IN HELL that there is - realistically speaking - any path to military victory for the IDF over Hamas that does NOT somehow trigger something even bigger, a lot more scary yet!

We all, myself included (and I have already been trying to)!, need to tone the incitement down a notch ... or seven! Because: this shit is just FUCKING DANGEROUS!

As ordinary civilians, there is not very much we can do! But we CAN refuse to fan the flames!

Takeme, I raised what we rightly did in WWII for the good of mankind - the H bomb in Japan and the bombing of /Dresden neer mind what my own parents suffered here in the UK with our nation fighting for democracy because we were asked how far we would go. That is how far we may in future need to go if eg Russia were to move into NATO areas or Russia and China combined to try to destroy us here. So yes we would go very hard indeed to preserve democracy.

Do Palesrinians count as innocent people or just Israelis? Because in a few weeks Israel will have murdered tens of thousands of Palestinians.

Anyone who is pro Israel constantly puts all the responsibility on Palestinian civilians. We've seen it all:

"they should just find somewhere else to live"

"they should understand Jewish people deserve a homeland"

"they should overthrow Hamas"

"Israel had the decency to tell them to flee for safety"

"yes it's sad 3k+ children have been killed but they elected Hamas"

"it's their parents fault, they shouldn't have had dc when they live under occupation"

And probably the most dehumanising:

"I don't know why they don't just make the most of it, my ancestors were forced to leave their homes 2 million years ago and they didn't complain!"

ALL of this is said with no acknowledgement, or a complete minimising of the continuous human rights violations that have been enforced on them for decades. When asked about this, the reply is always " but Hamas!". Such a tragic, double standards of human lives 😢

This a thousand sand times over.

The idea that Israel will be safer if it succeeds in obliterating Hamas is crazy thinking. Hamas is an idea that cannot be killed with bombs. The Islamic extremists outside of Israel's borders will still exist and will be looking for vengeance against Israel and anyone who supported IDF operations in Gaza. The current course of action will make Israelis less safe.

Netanyahu is sacrificing the safety of Israeli and Palestinian civilians trying to save his own skin. He will not survive in government whatever the result in Gaza. Perhaps he'll join his son in Florida to avoid answering criminal charges and I doubt the US would send him back to face the music.

Heidi's post does feel appeasement Neville Chamberlainish to me. I am sure no one wants things to escalate although it is a pity since Hamas invaded Israel that some other arab nations then saw fit to fire missiles at Israel. I am not sure every nation around that area such as iran wants peace with Israel/the West. In iran the US is the great satan and the UK is the little satan.

Israel since inception has always had to fight back just to preserve itself.

The Israelis say there are 30000 Hamas and they want to "neutralise" them all. On the BCC it says Israel reports they have killed dozens of Hamas.
They have had to kill 7000 civilians to achieve that.
So by those figures the killing won't be enough for Israel until everybody in Gaza is dead.

I saw two seconds just now of a video of a small child burned and broken on a gurney and I feel physically sick.

Then I saw several videos of Israelis cheering every bomb they can hear falling in Gaza. Psychopaths cheering child murder.

On the news last night world leaders were asking Israel to allow aid in. Aid! Whilst they bomb the civilian population to bits! The world is standing by and supporting genocide before our eyes.

It's hideous beyond words. I'm so upset. And so helpless.

May in future Hamas won't invade Israel - which action was Israel's 9/11 of course. I wonder what Hamas expected when it invaded and slit the throats of babies. Did it think Israel would say well done - we wll now disband our sovereign state.

So you support the genocide?

Psychopaths cheering child murder.

They are not psychopaths - and, no, that doesn't make it better, it actually makes it a lot worse!

They are - a few actually rabidly murderous exceptions that you will find pretty much anywhere, in any society excluded - pretty ordinary people. They think they are on the side of good! If they were sitting in front of their TVs, watching something similar happen in, say, France, they would be horrified and would question how on earth their fellow humans have sunk so low!

That is what systematic de-humanisation of the "enemy" does to people!

It's disgusting to watch. I mean surely they realise that innocent people including children are being killed by those bombs? They're not completely stupid.

No, they do not!

That was precisely my point!

Look, de-humanising people inevitably leads to a point where you just cannot feel empathy for the de-humanised party anymore.

Horrifying? Sure!!!

But it also tells us what we can do to try and stop it: radical empathy! radical humanity!

We can be horrified about thousands of kids being killed in Gaza, call out the inherent injustice and racism - and we can break down crying over the news that Shani Louk has been confirmed dead!

We can take a stance for our shared humanity! We have that option!

@HeidiInTheBigCity "But Hamas is NOT a globalist force! Again, they are ultimately islamist nationalists!"

This is soooo wrong.

Hamas is one of the arms of Iran who deals in State-sponsored Terrorism. They also fund Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad.

A number of countries (Argentina, Thailand, Albania,[3] Denmark,[4] France,[5] India,[6] Kenya,[7] United States)[8][9][10] have also accused Iran's government itself, particularly its military, the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps of plotting assassinations or bombings in their countries and others against perceived enemies of the Iranian government. In response, economic sanctions against the Iranian regime have been imposed by many countries and the United Nations. The first sanctions were imposed by the United States in November 1979, after a group of radical students seized the U.S. embassy in Tehran and took hostages (from Wikipedia)

We need to look at the bigger picture --https://iranwire.com/en/features/68483/

Summary of the above-

Conclusion - Expected to pass the Majlis and be ratified by the Guardian Council in its entirety, the new bill is a good example of Iran’s continued terrorist, anti-American, and anti-Israeli intentions. Although the legislation does not signal anything new about the government’s activities or goals, it confirms and formally enshrines Tehran’s hostile policy orientation in clear, undeniable terms. Hence, the regime needs to be held accountable for the bill’s contents if it becomes law. With regard to Iraq, the United States needs to remind its local partners that—per Iran’s legislation—any money that Tehran makes from trading with its neighbour will partly finance efforts to kill Americans.

@HeidiInTheBigCity https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/irans-khamenei-urges-muslim-states-cut-political-ties-with-israel-limited-period-2023-11-19/

Goodness knows how anyone can defend what is happening. It is obvious that more death will occur yet so many seem intent on that continuing and attempt to come up with justifications as to why it should continue.

There are children, babies, women and men being murdered. Whole families being erased.

@BackandForthRoundandRound" Goodness knows how anyone can defend what is happening."

Israel's position is very clear -

Amidror, the former Netanyahu adviser, said that while Israel does what it can to minimize civilian losses, it cannot halt its military operation because Hamas uses civilians as “human shields.”
“Let us assume that there is no technical way to fight and destroy Hamas without harming civilians,” Amidror said. “What is your advice? To give immunity to Hamas because they are very successful in attempts to use civilians as human shields?”
“From our (Israel’s) point of view, Hamas doesn’t have any immunity, and we will destroy Hamas,” he said. “And if civilians in Gaza are paying a price for that, we are very sorry, but the question should be applied to Hamas.”

Giving immunity to Hamas gives a green light to every other terrorist organisation

• (Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al-Nusrah Front.
• Al-Shabaab.
• Ansar al-Sharia.
• Ansar Bayt al-Maqdis (ABM)
• Al-Qa'ida Core (AQ)
• Al-Qa'ida in the Arabian. Peninsula (AQAP)
• Houthis

to come out of the woodwork and attack either Israel or other countries in the Middle East.

The Houthis are already waging war in Yemen.

The Assad regime released thousands of violent extremists from its prisons in 2011 and 2012, fueling a rise in terrorism within the country, in an attempt to justify its repression of the Syrian people and fracture international support for the Syrian opposition. Those very networks were among the terrorist elements that brutalized the Syrian and Iraqi populations in 2020.

I could give a list of all the ME terrorist groups and their aims and objectives, but I think you get the picture.