If you are pro Israel when is enough killing enough?

[TakeMe2Insanity]

Plenty of people have repeated “1400 Israeli’s were killed on 7/10”, but when is actually enough? The count is above 5000 in Gaza alone. Seriously when is enough enough?

Gruntsandgroans
You think teenagers deserve to die?

No, I don't - but a teenager with a gun or a grenade is just as capable of killing another person as someone 10 years older.

it makes you feel any better I've seen lots of videos of dead babies and children

It doesn't. Do you think this baby deserved to die?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/12/photo-baby-dead-hamas-israel-palestine-blinken/

I don’t understand these threads. Are most of these opinions garnered through watching mainstream media?

All my social media feeds are full of the atrocities happening to people in Gaza, the bombings are indiscriminate they are not seeking to target Hamas, they are wiping out entire families. More children have been killed in Gaza in 10 days than in the Ukrainian war this past year.

I am watching journalists on the ground in Gaza showing this happening in real time. When people say the death count is according to hamas they are minimising the situation. There are no winners here. I am utterly disgusted in humanity.

Apologise, you've misunderstood what I meant. I wasn't suggesting you were blaming the direct victims of the attacks but blaming the government for allowing their citizens to be attacked by not doing better in terms of intelligence gathering. Which felt rather unfair to the Israeli government / intelligence services. While I am generally not the biggest fan of the current iteration of the Israeli government, like with any of these things, the terrorists only have to get it right once to be successful, the government have to get it right every time to stop them, so while (as people always are in these situations) I'm sure there is some anger, this should really only be directed at the perpetrators.

Honestly, can't edit on app, i mean that I apologise- I'm not asking for an apology!

I'm not the one here doubting that babies are dead. That is you remember? Like I said maybe if Israel weren't also slaughtering UNRWA workers there would be more people around to verify for you. Israel are murdering red crescent workers too aren't they? So who exactly is it you want to go and count all of the little bodies? Whose life do you think Israel would think is worth saving? So far they've shown that nothing, no hospitals, no churches, no schools, no UN buildings, no refugee camps are safe from them so I don't really know who you think should be counting the bodies Clavinova?

Gruntsandgroans

I notice you didn't answer my question directly.

Why should I? I must have condemned Hamas actions 10s of times on here over the last two weeks. Why should I have to preface every single post with that. There was nothing in my post that indicated I thought that any babies deserve to die Clavinova. Nothing at all. So I don't see why I should have to answer over and over again just because I think the Israeli government are fucking rotten child murderers too.

You didn't answer either? Who do you think should be counting the bodies? Who do you think Israel won't murder?

Gruntsandgroans
Why should I?

Because you asked me the question first and I replied. I will say it again -
No, I don't think children and teenagers in Gaza deserve to die.

You were making excuses Clavinova. Maybe they were teens with guns. Doing what I don't know. Shooting down Israeli jets? You were the one trying to find reasons why it was OK to kill children so long as they were teens. Not me. Maybe reflect on that a little.

Gruntsandgroans
I must have condemned Hamas actions 10s of times on here over the last two weeks

Actually, you've spent most of your time avoiding the question.

🙈

@TakeMe2Insanity , one innocent life lost is one too much but we do need to be mindful of propaganda. There is no Palestinian authority or health authority. The only mouthpiece in the area is Hamas and they have demonstrated bountifully recently how happy they are to lie in order to garner support.

And we also need to be mindful the Israeli Govt lie eg about the toddler and the Al Jazeera journalist who both were shot dead. Also let's not forget the exchange between Sarkozy and Obama on the Israeli PM
"At the G20 meeting in Cannes the French president was clearly unaware a nearby microphone was open when he turned to Barack Obama and said: "Netanyahu, I can't stand him. He's a liar."

The US president, according to the French translator, replied: "You're sick of him? I have to work with him every day.""

Sarkozy: Netanyahu's a 'liar' | Benjamin Netanyahu | The Guardian

I think surveillance on the fence would really help. They need something that would spot a bulldozer, as that's what was used, and also some kind of surveillance of the sky so they can notice people coming in that way. They have a great reputation for tech so I think they could probably sort that out and at least prevent an incursion like this again.

Gruntsandgroans

You should be ashamed of some of your posts.

Look, honestly - and: without wanting to needlessly engage in "both-side-ism" (I am broadly what you would call "pro-Palestinian" - except: more complicated, also: utterly irrelevant to my point):

Objectively speaking:

Erm, yes! Israeli government lies through its teeth! As in "non-stop, all the time". But so does Hamas. For that matter: so do other Arab leaders, US leaders, European leaders ... I mean, we have literally got a word for that: "propaganda". You have an agenda, you try and get the message out in a way that favours it! For all of us old enough to remember: just think back to when Blair had Campbell as a spin doctor so prominently that the guy basically became a name in his own right!

It is just not constructive to assume anything else!

Regrettably, for the rest of us, this means: "arriving at an informed opinion is pretty hard work: not only does it entail reading and integrating a wide variety of mainstream sources - you may have to go above and beyond and also follow niche contributors on various sides". Personally, again, I am "broadly pro-Palestinian", also "definitely very leftist", I follow some Israeli far-right contributors for that precise reason! I might recoil in horror every single time they post something - because they are the living anti-thesis to everything I believe - but I need them to keep me grounded and "somewhere that roughly aligns with the realities actually out there", intellectually! It hurts, but I strongly recommend!

@HeidiInTheBigCity I get all that but when I read articles like the linked one below and I learn about the propogandists in the Israeli Gov like Ben Gvir who "has been convicted on at least eight charges, including supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism" The things that man has said and done - what an eye opener for me and I suspect many many in the UK if they read that article. I think even the most critical of Campbell would not compare him to the likes of this man Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s Minister of Chaos | The New Yorker

No, they would not!

Also, I am perfectly aware of (and: I have posted about him on here before - under this very user name - feel free to go and research!) and frankly horrified by Ben Gvir, specifically (and a few more of his ilk)!

But, that does nothing to what I intended to say at all - on the contrary: my overall point was "look, we can go ahead and disagree with each other over [oh, but: I give no credence to X on who bombed the hospital" vs. "and I cannot accept that Y people died on the grounds of who counts the dead" all day long!

We call it "fog of war" for a reason. The cliche that truth is the first casualty of war is a cliche for a reason.

Very often, pertaining to details: ACTUALLY, we just do not know. Yet. Eventually, someone will write their PhD on it and will be celebrated for the groundbreaking work they did - but that will be years from now!

That is not, however, to say that we should not take a stance, right here, and right now - just that it ought to be grounded, probably, more in "general trends, allowing for uncertainty" than in "oh but [supposed fact]." And that, in order to achieve this, while also trying to keep a genuinely open mind, quite some effort and willingness to be challenged is required!

I read an interesting take on the way in which Israel are defending themselves.

If a schoolkid started shooting everyone and hid in a school full of children, is it OK to bomb the school down?

Did you really find that interesting? I would have thought anyone on social media is coming across those kinds of memes on a minute by minute basis. It's like the kind of thought experiment you might give a class of 10 year olds as a kind of 'introduction to polemic'. They'd laugh at the childishness of it and might learn something useful about what not to do as a responsible adult once given the right to vote.

It’s really poor I agree

Fair enough, thank you.

I only meant it to be relevant in terms of assessing whether a future attack could be prevented via better intelligence, as opposed to saying Hamas aren’t to blame for their own vile actions which I fully accept that they are.

This is an awful post. Where on earth did you get this horrible assumption? I haven’t seen any Jewish person say anything of the sort! Remember Jewish people who believe in Zionism don’t always love the way their government goes about it. Just like we don’t.

I did.. sorry I didn't mean to be offensive