If you are pro Israel when is enough killing enough?

[TakeMe2Insanity]

Plenty of people have repeated “1400 Israeli’s were killed on 7/10”, but when is actually enough? The count is above 5000 in Gaza alone. Seriously when is enough enough?

What hamas did was strocious but they certainly didn't 'start' it. That was Israel but none the less 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Because despite the fact 5000 people have died in Gaza there is no politician calling for a ceasefire

How many Hamas fighters are included in that figure? Are Hamas counting everyone in Gaza as civilians?

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Well 70% are women and children so you can discount them.

It isn’t a stupid question, because those supporting Israel’s actions frequently point to how barbaric 7/10 attacks were (which they were) as a justification for the response, without engaging with the proportionality issue. If it took 10,000 Gazans to die to “make Israel safe” would that be acceptable? 100,000? 500,000? Why is that a stupid question, unless your answer is “however many it takes”?

actually I suspect Israel could prevent such another attack by better intelligence and preventing Gazans from entering Israel on permits. By all accounts they should have seen this coming. Hamas leaders aren’t in Gaza. The bombing is deterrence/punishment

Israel is a nuclear power with an advanced army and fighter jets etc etc. Palestinians have nothing in their open air prison. Israel have slowly been stealing land and evicting families so they are crammed into a tiny strip of land. Why is Israel illegally occupying West Bank? What have they done? Why are homes being taken there. With Gaza the excuse is Hamas. What’s the excuse with West Bank?

I cannot understand how anyone with an ounce of humanity can look at the images from Gaza and not support an immediate ceasefire. Yes Israel has a right to defend itself, like every other country on the planet. But what they are now doing is not self defence it is a merciless genocide by a nation state.

The people in Gaza could have a ceasefire if the hand over the Hamas leaders and release the hostages.
Hamas is holding on to a lot of fuel and depriving their own citizens of it because their need is greater ! Apparently they need it so they can fire rockets into Israel.
Why should Israel send more fuel in so it can be taken by Hamas.
And Hamas bombed their own hospital....oh it was by mistake so that's ok

You have a lot of people in various positions saying many things. So, from that, you came to the conclusion that Jewish people fearing for their safety is worth more than the life of a 6 year old child? It still doesn’t make sense to me how you reached that conclusion. I have read a lot of shit said by people on either side of the conflict, but that is pretty abhorrent.

Because there is a significant uptick in anti islamic hate crimes.

I hate to engage in the back and forth, point scoring shenanigans, but I do need to say that the Metropolitan Police has stated there has been a 1,350% increase in antisemitic hate crimes. Do you deny that?

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Gruntsandgroans
Well 70% are women and children so you can discount them

I've just seen a UN figure of 62 per cent but presumably all fatalities are announced by Hamas - they can't be independently verified? There may also be hundreds, if not thousands of teenagers with guns hiding in the city.

I would be surprised if the civilian population of Gaza were able to 'hand over the Hamas leaders' who I believe are actually in Qatar.

The attacks on 7/10 were barbaric.

No death is an acceptable death. Every death is a tragedy and a loss. Every death is a person with a story and a family, with thoughts and hopes.

It's a stupid question because the answer is always none. No deaths are acceptable.

That doesn't mean they won't happen.

Israeli intelligence is some of the best in the world. It hasn't protected them. And "they should have seen this coming" isn't very helpful after the fact.

It would be great if intelligence alone would keep Israeli people safe. It won't.

I would 100% support pretty much any peaceful solution that didn't lead to another diaspora. But I don't know what a peaceful solution might look like and my belief is that negotiation of peace with Hamas who fundamentally hate Jews is never going to be possible.

Will you deny these facts?

132 offline cases – (8 assaults, 11 threats, 5 acts of vandalism, and 57 cases of abusive behaviour). Cases occurred in areas like London (88, a two-fold increase), Greater Manchester (15), Lancashire (5), South Yorkshire (3), West Yorkshire (6), East Midlands (5) and West Midlands (7), the Southwest (1), and Northeast (2).

https://tellmamauk.org/tell-mama-records-six-fold-increase-in-anti-muslim-cases-between-october-7-and-october-19/

That's a great username.

I don’t understand what you’re saying. I think you support Israel’s response but are also saying one death is too many?

if it’s the word “acceptable” (not used in the Op I don’t think) you don’t like, put the question this way: how many Palestinian civilians would have to die before you would say you do not support this military solution as the civilian cost is too high?

The point about seeing it coming isn’t relevant retrospectively, but is relevant to whether there is another way to stop another such attack on the future with better intelligence. It is relevant to the contention that there is no way Israel can stop another attack without dropping thousands of bombs on Gaza.

Okay, so ... but:

Your statement summarises, crudely abbreviated, down to: "Deaths are awful, it would be preferable for them not to be necessary - but the project that is the state of Israel is more important".

I would personally and vehemently disagree [not because I am against Israel, in particular, for the record. Edited to point this one out, specifically! I just happen to not be conviced by the idea of nation states in general and cannot get excited about paying even a minor amount for it. But: that is me, and I am perfectly aware that this is not how most people would see it!] - but yours is a common sentiment. It DOES give added legitimacy to the question OP posed, though! HOW MANY deaths? Is there any point at which you would, on moral grounds, have to come down on the side of "with a heavy heart and tears in my eyes: this is no longer worth the price?!"

I am asking as someone who genuinely believes there are altogether better ideas for how to resolve this - but that they would currently all struggle and fail to gain enough support because, yes, the price is high (not in human lives - just "swallowed pride" and "deeply held convictions").

You didn’t answer my question.

I said that I thought your comment that Jewish people fearing for their safety is worth more than the life of a 6 year old child was disgusting. Using the murder of a 6 year old child as a point scoring exercise is vile.

I also find your complete refusal to acknowledge the rise of antisemitsm over the past couple of weeks questionable

I am pro Israeli and pro Gazan civilians. I believe all lives are equal. It’s a shame you don’t share that view, but that’s your problem.

On that basis, I’m not prepared to engage in this nonsense with you. I’ll leave you to have at it posting screenshots and links. And making things up in your head to argue over.

Also, as someone has already said to you, death, pain and suffering isn’t a competition.

Jesus. You think teenagers deserve to die? Fucking hell. If it makes you feel any better I've seen lots of videos of dead babies and children. I'm talking about toddlers not teenagers, just so we are clear that these weren't the 'teenagers with guns' that deserve it. I've seen small children with their faces blown off. Babies, some look weeks old their little bodies grey with dust. Babies wrapped in white shrouds, with red spots where their blood has seeped through. I've seen children screaming hysterically for their dead mums. So, so many bodies. And that's just what they have recovered, the others are buried under tons of concrete, some of them there is nothing left of them but mush. I saw a man holding his son in the palm of hand. Maybe if Israel weren't also killing UNRWA workers by the dozen, what is it 35 of them date(or do you not believe that either), more people would be able to count all of the little bodies for you.

Israel have destroyed their international reputation amongst non israelis . They are seen as war criminals and the perpetrators of genocide .how do they come back from that ????
Netanyahu out to save his own skin - when will this bombardment cease ?? Whats the plan ? Is there even a plan??
Hammas to me are abhorrent and an equal in cruelty stakes with israel

OK, so this is my point about it being a stupid question really.

I can't answer the question "how many Palestinian civilians would have to die" with some sort of arbitrary number. That would be ridiculous because the loss of even 1 life is too many. 1 person, 10 people, 10000 people, all too many. Each one is of value. It's a stupid question. But people will die in war / military intervention/ whatever you prefer to call it.

I would like for there to be a better solution than a military one and if military intervention is used my preference would always be to avoid civilian deaths. However, I am not in a position to say that there are other options and I haven't seen any decent ones suggested. My position is that I support Israels right to exist and that if that means using military solutions in response to being attacked then while not my ideal I understand it.

I find the statement about "they should have seen it coming" a bit victim blamey if I'm honest and it seems to support that idea that intelligence gathering doesn't work rather than does? Surely they used the best intelligence they had? How would they just do better?

I find the statement about "they should have seen it coming" a bit victim blamey if I'm honest and it seems to support that idea that intelligence gathering doesn't work rather than does? Surely they used the best intelligence they had? How would they just do better

victim blamey? Ok, I’m out. What a really unpleasant and uncalled for thing to say. I would never blame those poor people who were massacred for what happened to them. That the government should have done better is what i have gleaned from Israeli media, that there is a lot of anger at the government in Israel for not preventing the attack.

@TakeMe2Insanity
How can you advocate for peace when you so clearly have taken a side.

Do you think all these people died before 7-10 out of nothing?

I don't know. I don't think there is a morality scale where i can say well only one person died so thats ok.

But that said, there are actions I wouldn't feel able to understand. Say if nuclear weapons were used. So i guess there are limits to what is acceptable to me. I think it is probably not about it being proportion but making sense as a choice.

The idea of the price being too high is an interesting thing to consider. Gandhi felt the Jews should commit suicide rather than allow themselves to be killed in the holocaust. To give up Israel completely would feel a bit like this to me. It is part of everything.

And it's not just that "the project that is the state of Israel" is more important. It's that I do believe in the right of Israel to exist but also the people who live there to live freely and not in fear. (The same right I would absolutely want for the people of Gaza or anywhere else). So at the moment I think deaths are inevitable.

I (personally) would give up a lot for a peaceful solution and would be happy with most ways of stopping people dying. There are some lines though that would be very hard to cross.

I do agree though, there are likely some much better solutions than war but they are very unlikely to be acceptable for various reasons.