Be ashamed of yourselves

[Thisworld10]

That’s right be ashamed of yourselves. I come in these threads thinking I’ll read someone saying what’s happening to the people of Palestine is awful but what I end up reading is people saying they brought it on themselves because they elected Hamas.

So, what if they elected Hamas. We elected the Conservative party but they don’t speak for me, they certainly don’t act on behalf of the everyday citizen of this country. Be ashamed of yourselves for not valuing the lives of Palestinians but putting so much value on the lives of Israelis.

be ashamed of yourselves for justifying the ethnic cleansing of over 2 million people because Hamas attacked Israel in early October. Be ashamed of yourselves for standing for genocide in 2023!

be ashamed of yourselves for saying we would never allow the holocaust to happen again yet Palestinians are held in an open air prison. It’s literally been called a concentration camp, with no way in or out and they are being rampaged with bombs, white phosphorus bombs being dropped on them non stop. On Sunday night 400 died because of the bombs, over 2000 children are now dead. Be ashamed of yourselves for justifying their deaths and blaming them for it.

be ashamed of yourselves for condoning the protestors for wanting Palestinians to have a right to live a peaceful existence.

be ashamed for bringing history into justifying the slaughter of so many people. Yes, Palestinians did welcome Israelis into the holy land in the 1940’s, it doesn’t mean they get to die now. Yes, Israel has a right to exist, but that doesn’t mean Palestine doesn’t. Yes, Israel has land grabbed and continues to do so but no one is allowed to say anything. Yes, their is no Hamas in the West Bank but why are the Palestinian still being killed. Why are so many people illegally arrested mainly kids - held for decades in Israel prisons. Are they not hostages? Yea, Israel asked asked the Palestinians to move to the south with 24 hours notice for their ‘safety’ yet they are being killed in the south.

be ashamed if you ask any one who stands to defend the rights of Palestinians if they condemn Hamas. Everyone condemns Hamas. Being pro Palestinian doesn’t mean your pro-Hamas. I also condemn the barbarian acts of genocide committed by Israel. I condemn the open displays of hate for Palestinian people - calling them human animals etc.

Be ashamed if you think it’s so great they are letting a trickle of aid in but no fuel to run hospitals. Electricity ran out last night in the hospital. So many babies reliant in incubators will die as a result. be ashamed if you think it’s okay for world leaders to not call for a ceasefire and instead show 100% support to what Israel
is doing.

no one has the right to hold one life more dearer than another.

you should be ashamed of yourselves for valuing some over others.

@DownNative genuine question
Do you think the current stance Israel is taking will provide Israel the security it seeks?

I will give you my personal opinion which is I don't think it will
I do think Israel has the right to defend itself but I disagree greatly with many of the actions it has taken
I think there were some red lines that shouldn't have been crossed regardless of Hamas provocation and I certainly think more accountability should be taken
Not only for this war but the events leading up to it
Again that's just my own opnion

You believe that's the path Israel has taken, but something like that requires proper investigation.

The difference between us is I don't make statements like that ahead of such things. 🤷‍♂️

Again I'll ask is there anything I've said about Law Of Armed Conflict that's incorrect here?

ahead of such things

lol. The whole world can now see, that’s only your problem and not mine, so clutch your textbook if it makes you feel better.

It's hard to say as it really depends on what degree of damage they're able to inflict on Hamas.

My experience tells me when a terrorist group is degraded, worn down and most of their members dead, they're often not able to pose a further threat in future.

If that happens with Hamas, Israel can focus on Hezbollah who have certain worries of their own in entering a war with Israel. That's ultimately why they've only done border skirmishes, if I can describe it as that.

Israel's policy of normalisation of relations with Arab States has been a very good step towards national and regional security. Egypt and Jordan aren't the threats they used to be.

But an effective security solution is what creates the environment that leads to normalisation of relations deals. We can see that with Egypt and Jordan who eventually realised they couldn't match Israel militarily. Saudi Arabia was getting there with their own deal with Israel and they're a significant player. Its not a coincidence Hamas' attack came at a critical point in those talks.

Law Of Armed Conflict

I dread to think of the world our children will grow up in with so much rage and pain and need for vengeance the Palestinian people must be feeling just now.

Well yes as iv also said I doubt Hamas were too thrilled that Saudi of all countries were making a deal with Israel

Although a future attack may not be imminent after this war I don't believe that it won't happen again some time in the future.
The victims of today are likely to want to take revenge again at some point (again not condoning)
After this war its likely that Israels government will become more extreme and right wing than it already is
With the continued oppression of the Palestinians especially in the west bank and the ongoing of the blockade of Gaza it will only be a matter of time before the pot boils over again

Unless a two state solution can be reached where both sides agree
And the oppression stops, the extremist settlers are handled properly by Israel and removed from the west bank along with the illegal settlements

There needs to be a ground change in how the US deals with Israel, as Israel won't change a thing in its present form as it knows it isn't accountable to anyone who could inflict financial damage on it. It's in the US's pocket. Or maybe the other way round, I'm never sure now.

If Hamas is defeated, that'll be the end of them as a viable threat in future in the same way PIRA has ceased to be a viable threat.

Any persons who wish to attempt revenge in future may well end up in a rump group who cannot really do very much damage. That's the case with NIRA after the defeat of PIRA - its just symbolic futile attacks for propaganda purposes, they say.

I would say its not really a given that most Palestinians would resort to this. Again, Europe's post-war history suggests as much too. When people see how high the costs ultimately are and how terrorist violence didn't advance their goals, they tend to focus more on politics as the only viable way forward.

That's what the security solution does - creates an environment where politics can breathe.

So, an Israeli defeat of Hamas, Arab normalisation of relations with Israel and Arab States being involved in political settlement talks is what's going to be necessary eventually. I'd expect Iran to be in the cold. Any militant Palestinian would think twice about future terrorism under these events. Saudi Arabia has already been showing their frustration with Palestinian leaders since 2018.

And Qatar is very mindful of the two massive USAF bases in its territory. Hence, their involvement in hostage releases.

Any revenge terrorist actor is likely to be too isolated to pose a significant threat.

From a security perspective, take out Hamas, facilitate Palestinian Authority to retake Gaza and then do a deal with PA. Israel knows from the past that Abbas is willing to cooperate with Israel which hasn't been popular with a significant proportion of Palestinians.

Israel has been willing to remove Isrselis from West Bank before too - that deal was rejected by Arafat to the fury of Clinton.🤷‍♂️

I'm off to sleep but there's alot of food for thought there
Will read it again tomorrow morning when I have a better functioning brain

I think people would be more likely to be driven to extremism by propaganda finding fertile soil in an unpleasant or challenging present than in past events.

So for instance there were huge German civilian losses from Allied bombing, but there was no movement post-war based around revenge for this.

This is another reason why the festering sore that is the situation in the West Bank needs to be properly and fairly dealt with.

Gaza will need huge co-operation and vision long-term.

Right now it's awful though. I hope that at least the awfulness means there isn't a return to the status quo, which wasn't great either.

Europe dealt with the possibility of revenge attacks by using coal and steel to reunify European States again.

The Germans, for example, support the Water For Peace deal in the Middle East. Indeed, that's part of Israel's normalisation of relations with Jordan.

If Hamas can be moved out of the way, Israel can do similar deals with PA. EcoPeace (Israeli, Palestinian and Jordanian) initiative already works along those lines. Arab State involvement along with the West will be very important too.

Only the Palestinian people?!

This kind of attitude is definitely part of the problem.

Well yes, Israel is wreaking its vengeance as we speak, backed unconditionally by the most powerful nations in the world, with an additional $14 billion in military aid approved just by the US senate.

Another person might say that Israel is attempting to get rid of terrorist Hamas who are using the Palestinian people and stealing money meant hor them for its own twisted ends.
Would anyone think that Gaza is better with Hamas! Surely the Palestinian people deserve better than Hamas who siphon money away.

*Only the Palestinian people?!

This kind of attitude is definitely part of the problem*.

Well no, of course other innocent lives matter too. But the Palestinians are the ones suffering the most at the moment.

@whatswrongwiththeworldddd

It’s not even about who’s suffering more. The threats of rage, anger and hurt - in the form of future radicalization - are greater when they are suppressed, with no recognized, legitimate or meaningful outlet for expression and challenge.

It’s also why most people probably aren’t concerned about suppressed Ukrainian rage and anger, because their fighters are militarily backed by some of the world’s greatest powers.

Tell that to the families of the hostages! Tell that to the families who have lost loved ones.
Tell that to women and girls that have been raped.
Tell that ....

Seriously insensitive. Have some compassion for all . Is that so hard?

Many, many people are suffering, Palestinian people, Israeli people and foreign nationals who were merely living a great life at a festival almost a month ago.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Thank you for a reasoned and informative discussion.🕊

And again.

@DownNative saw this and remembered our discussion
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That is fair.

World of difference between the IRA (or other European nationalist terror groups) and Islamist terror groups, as well you should know.

The PLO was defeated, what did they morph into? same with AQ, became ISIS and ISIS, despite Russian and US/UK attempts at destroying them, is alive and kicking, same with Taliban too....
There are plenty of states around the world that will rearm whoever comes out of Hamas.

What is happening in Gaza, in response to the terror attacks on 7th October, is only going to ensure Israel has enemies in the region for ever more.

Hamas of course triggered this response (i doubt they expected Israel to go in so hard) but blow up kids? really? Israel certainly believes in the Old Testaments "an eye for eye..."

Its awful what Israel is doing, supported by the UK/USA etc its truly amazing to see the different values they/we put on a Palestinian child's life and a Ukrainian one, justified using exactly the same language as Russia does when they blow up a Hospital or a Café

Israel won’t be getting weapons via Belgium ( very pleased at the actions of my country!)