Be ashamed of yourselves

[Thisworld10]

That’s right be ashamed of yourselves. I come in these threads thinking I’ll read someone saying what’s happening to the people of Palestine is awful but what I end up reading is people saying they brought it on themselves because they elected Hamas.

So, what if they elected Hamas. We elected the Conservative party but they don’t speak for me, they certainly don’t act on behalf of the everyday citizen of this country. Be ashamed of yourselves for not valuing the lives of Palestinians but putting so much value on the lives of Israelis.

be ashamed of yourselves for justifying the ethnic cleansing of over 2 million people because Hamas attacked Israel in early October. Be ashamed of yourselves for standing for genocide in 2023!

be ashamed of yourselves for saying we would never allow the holocaust to happen again yet Palestinians are held in an open air prison. It’s literally been called a concentration camp, with no way in or out and they are being rampaged with bombs, white phosphorus bombs being dropped on them non stop. On Sunday night 400 died because of the bombs, over 2000 children are now dead. Be ashamed of yourselves for justifying their deaths and blaming them for it.

be ashamed of yourselves for condoning the protestors for wanting Palestinians to have a right to live a peaceful existence.

be ashamed for bringing history into justifying the slaughter of so many people. Yes, Palestinians did welcome Israelis into the holy land in the 1940’s, it doesn’t mean they get to die now. Yes, Israel has a right to exist, but that doesn’t mean Palestine doesn’t. Yes, Israel has land grabbed and continues to do so but no one is allowed to say anything. Yes, their is no Hamas in the West Bank but why are the Palestinian still being killed. Why are so many people illegally arrested mainly kids - held for decades in Israel prisons. Are they not hostages? Yea, Israel asked asked the Palestinians to move to the south with 24 hours notice for their ‘safety’ yet they are being killed in the south.

be ashamed if you ask any one who stands to defend the rights of Palestinians if they condemn Hamas. Everyone condemns Hamas. Being pro Palestinian doesn’t mean your pro-Hamas. I also condemn the barbarian acts of genocide committed by Israel. I condemn the open displays of hate for Palestinian people - calling them human animals etc.

Be ashamed if you think it’s so great they are letting a trickle of aid in but no fuel to run hospitals. Electricity ran out last night in the hospital. So many babies reliant in incubators will die as a result. be ashamed if you think it’s okay for world leaders to not call for a ceasefire and instead show 100% support to what Israel
is doing.

no one has the right to hold one life more dearer than another.

you should be ashamed of yourselves for valuing some over others.

The context of the modern Arab-Israeli conflict does have its roots in the 1947 partition, 1948 declaration of Independence by Israel and the resulting invasion by five Arab State armies.

It's continued since.

You don't think things would have been different had Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon not invaded Israel in the first place?

You don't think that massively accelerated the need for Israel to developed military security measures ever since?

More irrelevant history lessons. I wasn’t alive in the 1940s. Nor were any of the thousands of children currently being killed, maimed and orphaned or the million or so being made homeless as we speak.

I’m tired of being told constantly on these threads, always by the same few posters, that it’s fine for Israel to kill innocent children because of what happened when none of us were alive. We, the people who are alive, are all only responsible for what we do NOW.

If you must insist on going back in time, I’m afraid don’t think Israel was the blameless entity you want to think.

Personally however I prefer to focus on what the people who are currently alive are doing. And it’s pretty disgusting.

Hang on, you're shifting the goalposts there.

The roots of the conflict IS from the 1947 and 1948 period mentioned. It certainly isn't irrelevant to mention this nor does the conflict as a whole make sense without it.

Your second paragraph is a Strawman Argument Fallacy as you're implying that's what I'm saying. 🤦‍♂️

Further Strawman Arguments.

Sure, by all means focus on what people alive today are doing. But history still comes into the picture, especially for those living in the region.

So, what would be your solution to the conflict?

Moralising isn't very practical in discussing these things. Hence my question.

You’re still doing it. Implying that before we condemn Israel’s mass murders in Gaza we should learn all about Israel’s history, before any of those Palestinian children, their parents or even most of their grandparents were alive.

According to Time magazine, the death toll in Gaza now eclipses the combined death toll of all prior Hamas-Israel wars.
Call me a “moraliser” but I think it’s high time the current round of mass killing, maiming and home-wrecking came to an end.

God.
Round and round and round we go.
current atrocities disguised by history lessons.

Some posters have their head in the sand.

Not so.

These are YOUR own words I originally responded to below:

"I think the Israeli leaderships and their hatred (with the exception of Rabin, who was murdered by an Israeli) have caused an enormous amount of trouble in the Middle East."

And:

"I can’t tell you what Israel’s neighbours would do if it stayed within its borders. Because the whole problem is, it never has."

Comments like that invites in the wider history of the conflict. Its certainly not the case that the conflict was caused by Israeli leaderships, but by the five Arab States' 1948 invasion as well as subsequent Three Noes Of Khartoum. Israel was within its own borders when it was invaded.

The Arab invasion is what ultimately changed things in the region which reverberates down to the present day. A tiny State surrounded by much bigger, hostile States is always going to have an incentive for developing militarily and implementing various security measures.

As I keep saying, the security problem has to be resolved effectively in order to facilitate a political settlement for all in the region.

More irrelevant history lessons

spotting a pattern, anyone

Great! Yes.

So, how exactly would you bring the current conflict to an end?

According to Time magazine, the death toll in Gaza now eclipses the combined death toll of all prior Hamas-Israel wars.

As awful as that is, the Hamas atrocity was such that it was entirely predictable.

Call me a “moraliser” but I think it’s high time the current round of mass killing, maiming and home-wrecking came to an end.

I'm sure everyone does. But the ceasefire does need to come from both sides, as much as many seem to forget that. Hamas is still firing rockets as well, as well as holding the hostages.
And then you have this:
https://twitter.com/HadiNasrallah/status/1720459006253146212

So a ceasefire needs to be negotiated between all players. As awful as the civilian deaths are, it's plainly unrealistic to expect Israel to unilaterally desist.

Today
Just in case you’re hiding from it all.
Israel bomb ambulance convoy of 6 ambulances taking critically I’ll patients and medics to Egypt
and Israel refuse to engage on humanitarian routes

up to you but.
I have found not engaging the better course of action.
some people refuse education

So, how exactly would you bring the current conflict to an end?

land shared fairly (there’s your essential problem as Israel wants IT ALL)

non extremist governments on both sides, living alongside each other with a DMZ between them in peace, helped by the international community.

that’s what will bring the conflict to an end

Also, per Time magazine, Israel’s war crimes and its disregard for the international criminal court mean that, worldwide, other countries may lose faith in the ICC and cease to pay attention to the institutions that were so carefully set up after WW2. That is, unless the US gets a lot more firm with Israel’s murdering behaviour.

I understand that the US, having propped Israel up so expensively and for so long is having trouble accepting that its investment has gone down such a wrong path. I’ve been hoping that despite a public show of support there has been a lot of discussion behind the scenes - but if so, it’s not working. Here we are, still more murders and maimings happening daily and more homeless families.

@Lonelycrab
I agree

Indeed, any ceasefire has to be something Hamas and Hezbollah are willing to abide by. Not just Israel.

Yet the history of ceasefires in the Middle East tells us terrorist groups use them to rearm. Indeed, ceasefires are not appropriate responses for all types of conflict since they can prolong some conflicts but not others.

I guess there won't be an answer to my question from a PP regarding how they would bring the conflict to an end. 🤷‍♂️

The reality is that conflict resolution is not about moralising, but about practical solutions.

Lonelycrab has answered that question for you.
As have many other posters.

Oct 7th was an act of war, just as 9/11 was an act of war. How peace is managed after this will need international effort including the arab union.

Thank you for your response.

Only Israel wants it all? See attachments from Reuters this week.

The best partition solution was the 1947 UN plan which was rejected by Palestinian leaders. Abbas has said they were mistaken in doing that.

Your DMZ comment still has to take partition of land into consideration. Where to put it and how wide should it be? Remember the place is small.

As for the governments, there's a mechanism for Israelis to change their government. Indeed, they used to have a left wing government until the suicide bomb attacks in the 1990s. Attacks like that often push electorates the other way.

How exactly would you remove Hamas from government in Gaza?

They don't allow elections and still have popular support there.

Again, political solutions are very much dependent on security solutions. I don't see any security solutions in your post as you've focused on political ones?

The reality is that conflict resolution is not about moralising, but about practical solutions

Well genocide is nowhow a significant proportion of the world now sees this Israeli ‘solution’

That doesn’t resolve anything, you’re a fool if you think it does.

I've seen it now.

I note you've not.

Can you actually quote where I've suggested genocide is a solution to conflict?

I know that for a political settlement to be found the security solution comes first. It is security that makes politics possible.

I didn’t say you said genocide was a solution.

That is the path Israel has taken to find its ‘solution’ that’s all, one that you seem to think is justified.