Page 4 | What do you understand from the chant 'Free Palestine'?

piddocktrumperiness · 2023-10-23T07:31:36+00:00

Just that really. I have seen there have been many marches these last few days where people in solidarity with Palestinians chant 'Free Palestine' Now I understand that as Free Palestine from the occupation; West Bank vs Settlers, military rule, and blockades in Gaza. I have asked a Palestinian friend and a Lebanese neighbour what they think it means and they confirmed what I thought. But the chant is triggering many others to believe it is anti Semitic or that it means something else and it's passing me as to what else it could mean.

Worddance · 23/10/2023 14:02

For as long as Palestinians are not free, I think they must be able to chant this. Of course there will be radical elements because there always are when a people group is being oppressed. It doesn't mean others can't call for their freedom.

MangoAF · 23/10/2023 14:06

saffronsoup · 23/10/2023 13:53

There is no one belief. There are over 14 million Palestinians dispersed and displaced around the globe. For many Free Palestine means to have a place to call home, for some it means the existence of a place called Palestine where Palestinians can come and go (freedom of movement) and freedom to make decisions and choices about their lives, for some it means the ability to see family they haven't seen in years / decades due to the occupation, for others it means freedom from being held captive by Israel, for some it means freedom to live their lives as free citizens, for others it means freeing the area of Jews / Isrealis, for some it means freedom from the constant threat of death, from the poverty of occupation, from the terror and trauma and pain and suffering they live with. For some the from the River to the Sea saying - means the freedom of Palestinians currently living in captivity between the River and the Sea, for others it may be more anti-semitic.

I work with quite a few Palestinians who grew up in Jordan - none are wishing for the extermination of Jews or Israel.

“Oh hi, how are you?”
”Good thanks, good weekend?”
”yeah great, just saw in the in laws. Do you want early or late lunch break?”
”early please. Sorry, just checking, when you say free Palestine, do you wish for the extermination of Jews and Israel?”
”gosh no! When I say free Palestine from the river to the sea, I merely mean to wish for love and peace for all!”
”great! I think we all want that so do keep chanting it at work”

Absolute load of bollocks. If you ever have had any conversation like that at work with colleagues I really hope there are no Jews at your workplace.

saffronsoup · 23/10/2023 14:10

MangoAF · 23/10/2023 14:06

“Oh hi, how are you?”
”Good thanks, good weekend?”
”yeah great, just saw in the in laws. Do you want early or late lunch break?”
”early please. Sorry, just checking, when you say free Palestine, do you wish for the extermination of Jews and Israel?”
”gosh no! When I say free Palestine from the river to the sea, I merely mean to wish for love and peace for all!”
”great! I think we all want that so do keep chanting it at work”

Absolute load of bollocks. If you ever have had any conversation like that at work with colleagues I really hope there are no Jews at your workplace.

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Do you work in a workplace? That isn't how conversations go. Or maybe you are having a stroke.

Not at all a load of bullocks. Just like people on here say they know their Israeli / Jewish coworkers and friends aren't cheering at children being killed in Palestine or that they don't want every Palestinian dead and eradicated from earth. How do they know this - they talk, like people do.

And you know nothing about my workplace, not all workplaces are the same.

MangoAF · 23/10/2023 14:11

I’m starting a new chant
“from the sea to the wall, Israel will conquer all!”
I’m going to start chanting it at rallies and such like. I’m sure if asked everyone will accept my explanation that it’s got absolutely nothing to do with Palestinians and wishing them any harm, but actually it’s really about peace and love and just hoping that kindness will prevail, and actually people can use it in different ways anyway.

saffronsoup · 23/10/2023 14:13

MangoAF · 23/10/2023 14:11

I’m starting a new chant
“from the sea to the wall, Israel will conquer all!”
I’m going to start chanting it at rallies and such like. I’m sure if asked everyone will accept my explanation that it’s got absolutely nothing to do with Palestinians and wishing them any harm, but actually it’s really about peace and love and just hoping that kindness will prevail, and actually people can use it in different ways anyway.

That is already happening. There are a multitue of pro Israel rallies happening. Join one. You can challenge them whenever they say they want peace and love and insist all they want is genocide.

AbsoluteYawns · 23/10/2023 14:37

Pollyputhekettleon · 23/10/2023 09:48

This ideology is one of the core reasons why younger generations in western countries are less and less supportive of Israel. When you reduce debate to a competition of emotions and identity politics, disputes will be resolved by reference to which group is Oppressor and which is Victim. Those roles have long since been assigned in the case of Israel. I'd stop feeding the crocodile if I were you.

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Are you denying the experiences of Jewish people who say this chant is anti semitic?
Is this what you are saying? Please clarify.

AbsoluteYawns · 23/10/2023 14:40

ChickenSoupAndLokshen · 23/10/2023 10:51

Here's a simple thought experiment.

Following the impact of the BLM movement, if black people told you that a song being sung by many other ethnic groups was grossly offensive, would you continue to sing it? In public? At marches attended by some people who call for their destruction? Would you tell them they're being over-dramatic and the words weren't racist? Especially just after c1200 of them were brutally massacred and c200 were taken as hostages by, say, white supremacists?

Thought not. So don't do it to Jews. Or you're antisemitic.

Exactly what I was trying to say.
Agree with you @ChickenSoupAndLokshen
Jewish people aren't allowed to say what's anti semitic...gosh no...special rules for Jewish people!

Pollyputhekettleon · 23/10/2023 14:46

saffronsoup · 23/10/2023 14:13

That is already happening. There are a multitue of pro Israel rallies happening. Join one. You can challenge them whenever they say they want peace and love and insist all they want is genocide.

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Wait, someone's already stolen Mango's idea?! That was quick. I think she should sue them for copyright infringement.

Pollyputhekettleon · 23/10/2023 14:54

AbsoluteYawns · 23/10/2023 14:37

Are you denying the experiences of Jewish people who say this chant is anti semitic?
Is this what you are saying? Please clarify.

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I don't speak the language of 'denying members of X minority groups' experiences'. I do not and will never accept that any minority group has the sole authority to define any word in our language. I've explained already that I oppose identity politics. You're familiar with this position, right? It was normal across the political spectrum up until approximately 5 minutes ago when the blue hair brigade arrived.

hamstersarse · 23/10/2023 15:32

The propaganda machine has been so effective at presenting Palestinians as the oppressed group that the chant "Free Palestine from the river to the sea" is just lost on people as to what is actually entailed in doing that.

Sounds nice I suppose.

Unless you factor in extremist terrorists who are prepared to do anything to get what they want

LemonyTicket · 23/10/2023 15:40

"Free Palestine" in a meaningful sense, would mean freeing Palestinian people from their oppressive, authoritarian government who took over, stopped elections for 16 years, give their citizens no rights, waste all their money on bombs, radicalise their young people to violence and use all their resources to engage in terrorism with their next door neighbour.

If they stopped doing all that, Palestinian people could build a country of prosperity and safety.

As is, nothing Israel does or does not do would actually make that happen.

saffronsoup · 23/10/2023 15:51

hamstersarse · 23/10/2023 15:32

The propaganda machine has been so effective at presenting Palestinians as the oppressed group that the chant "Free Palestine from the river to the sea" is just lost on people as to what is actually entailed in doing that.

Sounds nice I suppose.

Unless you factor in extremist terrorists who are prepared to do anything to get what they want

Do you truly not see Palestinians as oppressed?

SidekickSylvia · 23/10/2023 15:58

What's the point of the marching and the chanting? What does it actually achieve? Other than to make many Jewish people feel unsupported, unwelcome and very obviously outnumbered.

Other than that, does it make any material difference to the suffering of Palestinians?

OhHelloTheres · 23/10/2023 19:19

@watcherintherye
"If it were Jewish people being marginalised, under siege and under constant bombardment without any protection, do you really think people would be standing by and rubbing their hands in glee? Maybe you do, and I’m sorry for that, but I can guarantee that would not be the case."

Yes, I do think that. In fact, as of 16 days ago we have proof of that. There were street parties all over the world celebrating the slaughter, maiming, raping, torture, kidnapping etc of innocent Israelis.

I know you don't want to believe it, but it's true. They were handing out sweets to children in celebration all over Gaza. There were fireworks set off in London in celebration.

OhHelloTheres · 23/10/2023 19:32

@saffronsoup
But how are Israelis and Jews all over the world meant to know what the people chanting mean? How are we meant to know if they just want to be free or if they want to kill all Jews? So obviously, without knowing for sure what they're thinking, we're going to assume the worst case scenario as that's the only way to potentially save ourselves from being lynched.

I hope you understand why it is therefore considered an anti-semitic chant, not just one in favour of letting Palestinians live in peace in the land they call home.

(And no, I don't mean "call home" as in trying to imply it isn't actually their home. I'm just too tired to think of a better phrase. I mean the land they live in.)

MissyB1 · 23/10/2023 19:32

SidekickSylvia · 23/10/2023 15:58

What's the point of the marching and the chanting? What does it actually achieve? Other than to make many Jewish people feel unsupported, unwelcome and very obviously outnumbered.

Other than that, does it make any material difference to the suffering of Palestinians?

It’s an attempt to raise awareness, and make those people’s feelings clear to the Government and others. In this case for me it’s saying “not in my name” in response to the Government line.
Thats my interpretation anyway. I’ve been on plenty of marches and rallies in my time - right back to the CND days!

Coveescapee · 23/10/2023 19:42

saffronsoup · 23/10/2023 14:13

That is already happening. There are a multitue of pro Israel rallies happening. Join one. You can challenge them whenever they say they want peace and love and insist all they want is genocide.

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There are not a multitude of rallies on. There was a planned prayer walk in London which the police asked the organisers to cancel because of safety concerns. They also told a group with a van advertising the hostages to go home for their own safety. There was a small vigil yesterday in Trafalgar Square which had loads of security only one way to enter. It was in marked contrast to the pro-palestine tales which were very threatening and included jihad shouts and waving the Isis flag. The police just turned a blind eye. It turns out an exiled Hamas leader is living in Barnet. I am very worried and I'm not even Jewish.

Angrycat2768 · 23/10/2023 19:42

SidekickSylvia · 23/10/2023 15:58

What's the point of the marching and the chanting? What does it actually achieve? Other than to make many Jewish people feel unsupported, unwelcome and very obviously outnumbered.

Other than that, does it make any material difference to the suffering of Palestinians?

I don't think it achieves anything but to make people on the marches feel better about themselves. These marches have been going on for decades. Netanyahu isn't going to stop doing what he's doing. Hell, the UN couldnt even stop the settlements Re: will people be rubbing their hands with glee if the Jews were annihilated as a result of ' Palestine being free from the river to the sea' I suspect most people on those marches will go back to their lives, forgetting all about it.

1dayatatime · 23/10/2023 20:03

@Pollyputhekettleon

"I do not and will never accept that any minority group has the sole authority to define any word in our language"

+++

So on that basis the white majority in the UK could use any word to describe black citizens or Asian citizens so long as the white majority didn't feel it was unacceptable regardless of the views of their fellow Black or Asian citizens.

This is a roll back to the 1970s of "well yes I did use the n word or p word - but I didn't mean any harm by it, I'm not racist, can't you take a joke etc etc"

Coveescapee · 23/10/2023 20:07

1dayatatime · 23/10/2023 20:03

@Pollyputhekettleon

"I do not and will never accept that any minority group has the sole authority to define any word in our language"

+++

So on that basis the white majority in the UK could use any word to describe black citizens or Asian citizens so long as the white majority didn't feel it was unacceptable regardless of the views of their fellow Black or Asian citizens.

This is a roll back to the 1970s of "well yes I did use the n word or p word - but I didn't mean any harm by it, I'm not racist, can't you take a joke etc etc"

Well said. I think alot of these people are white saviors and deeply racist and as they see Jews as white don't see their own racism.

Pollyputhekettleon · 23/10/2023 20:13

1dayatatime · 23/10/2023 20:03

@Pollyputhekettleon

"I do not and will never accept that any minority group has the sole authority to define any word in our language"

+++

So on that basis the white majority in the UK could use any word to describe black citizens or Asian citizens so long as the white majority didn't feel it was unacceptable regardless of the views of their fellow Black or Asian citizens.

This is a roll back to the 1970s of "well yes I did use the n word or p word - but I didn't mean any harm by it, I'm not racist, can't you take a joke etc etc"

In term of what's criminalized and what isn't, yes that's how democracy is supposed to work. It's a rollback of nothing because standpoint epistemology, which is the root of your belief system, is not what made saying words like that socially unacceptable in the first place.

Are you aware that many non-white people believe that even refusing to condemn Israel, let alone supporting its existence, is racist? Do you know that Israel is viewed as a racist white settler imperialist state and therefore even silence, even a failure to fully and unreservedly condemn it, is considered racism, in fact white supremacism?

Are Jews supposed to bow to that because they're all deemed to be white? Am I, because I'm fairly unarguably white? Or are we taking a global poll of 'non-white' people (assuming we manage to define them...) and only then can we decide if that is or is not racist. Do you see the problem here yet?

Ididivfama · 23/10/2023 20:16

User98866 · 23/10/2023 08:39

Many calling for this want the expulsion of all Jews from the region. Let’s not be naive about it. Some chanting may not realise.

But I don’t actually think that’s true

Ididivfama · 23/10/2023 20:19

hamstersarse · 23/10/2023 15:32

The propaganda machine has been so effective at presenting Palestinians as the oppressed group that the chant "Free Palestine from the river to the sea" is just lost on people as to what is actually entailed in doing that.

Sounds nice I suppose.

Unless you factor in extremist terrorists who are prepared to do anything to get what they want

But they are oppressed and have had many, many casualties. The horrors that have happened to Israel in early October do not take away what has been happening to Palestinians for years and the atrocities that are continuing now. That keep on and on and on but the powerful Israeli government. Surely you can understand that is what most people see?

roarrfeckingroar · 23/10/2023 20:34

There is no occupation in Gaza.

I hear it as either an anti semitic chant from people who don't believe Israel should exist or meaningless words from people who don't understand the history / reality and think Palestine is a victim regardless of the daily terrorist rockets against Israel

watcherintherye · 23/10/2023 20:35

There were fireworks set off in London in celebration.

I’m sorry. That’s appalling.