Thread 2 To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

[MistyMooPup]

First thread here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4916801-to-think-hamas-have-given-israel-the-excuse-they-were-looking-for?page=38

I'm just place marking.

@parkingt111

Are you saying there is absolutely no way that any innocent civilians from Gaza can be saved and let out?

No, of course not! I want them all to escape!

It's just that the otherwise brilliant article you shared suggested that Israel should not only be warning them to get out, but also creating safe spaces for them to go to.

I'm not sure that's Israel's job. Isn't it Egypt's job, or Jordan's, or Lebanon's?

Israel has enough on its hands dealing with Hamas.

And it's not easy spotting who is just an "innocent civilian from Gaza" and not someone with a destructive agenda.

I’m glad you put another thread up as I think that article posed an interesting perspective

I had a reply but will redo

Jordan already has 3+ million Palestinians living there. There are over 14 million Palestinians globally and almost 10 million of them live outside of the West Bank / Gaza. There used to be more Palestinians in Syria and Lebanon but those countries have themselves not fared well in the last decade and their own people are struggling to survive so many of the Palestinian refugees have left.

These were some thoughts linking to article on other thread

I do think it’s where Biden and co are working to get closer to the solutions in that article

Yes they fund billions, not least to keep that dome functioning against rockets still fired but when your friend is in a blind rage you have to talk.

I can understand that rage, what happened was barbaric and beyond normal comprehension. If we suffered it here I’d be scared and have many deep feelings over it. I cannot expect other people to feel differently.

But that’s where Biden sort of comes in, Qatar also a big player.

Not to forget a major priority of not promoting escalation in the region and on that aim so far people have been successful

I often consider that we think not much is done but keeping these extremists from really threatening everyone, including us, takes a success we do not see, ever really. I include Putin and now the ME in that.

And what about safe places within Gaza? Or is the whole of Gaza a legitimate target?

Obviously not. But I've no idea what information Israel is acting on.

Even armed conflict have rules. Countries can't just do whatever they please if they think it will bring the result they wish
I need to go now but il try find the Geneva Convention and other laws that Israel must abide by in this war this evening
Unless someone else comes by it before me

@Alcemeg would also like to clarify I don't agree with everything in that article but as it had some alternatives and written from a pro Israeli stance I figured the pro Israelis would be more likely to read it, in comparison to if I had posted something from Al jazeera which would have been shot down without even giving it a chance

The article was useful in that it showed how the majority of countries react to barbaric acts of terrorism

If you do something so heinous to other people as a provocation you can likely expect that response, if you look at what history shows

I agree with the ideas but the solutions were light, with no examples.

Still, I think people are pushing for aid to get through

Don't worry, we all know what the Geneva Convention says.

International humanitarian law aims to protect civilians from direct attack.

What complicates this situation is that Hamas fight dirty by provoking conflict with outrageous war crimes and then using their own people as human shields.

Just placemarking

Just place parking

Why do you need to comment? Just click the button Watch Thread.

Egypt don't want refugees;

https://theweek.com/politics/why-wont-egypt-accept-refugees-from-gaza

Neither do Jordan;

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/why-egypt-and-other-arab-nations-are-hesitant-to-take-in-palestinian-refugees

Their refusal is rooted in fear that Israel wants to force a permanent expulsion of Palestinians into their countries and nullify Palestinian demands for statehood.

Although they don't want Hamas fighters coming in, the above is their main issue. It's not through a dislike of Palestinians, but a fear that Israel will push them out and they won't be able to return to their homes.

El-Sissi repeated warnings Wednesday that an exodus from Gaza was intended to “eliminate the Palestinian cause … the most important cause of our region.” He argued that if a demilitarized Palestinian state had been created long ago in negotiations, there would not be war now.
“All historical precedent points to the fact that when Palestinians are forced to leave Palestinian territory, they are not allowed to return back,” said H.A. Hellyer, a senior associate fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “Egypt doesn’t want to be complicit in ethnic cleansing in Gaza.”
Arab countries’ fears have only been stoked by the rise under Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of hard-right parties that talk in positive terms about removing Palestinians. Since the Hamas attack, the rhetoric has become less restrained, with some right-wing politicians and media commentators calling for the military to raze Gaza and drive out its inhabitants. One lawmaker said Israel should carry out a “new Nakba” on Gaza.

@ChickHenLittle But that's not the full story;

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/10/17/israel-war-why-wouldnt-egypt-want-gazan-refugees/

And it could be a case of 'out of the frying pan'

https://www.newarab.com/features/no-recognition-no-rights-palestinians-egypt

I think Egypt has its own issues.

I agree.

Reading those articles I agree Egypt is being pretty clear it cannot manage to take people

To those asking how I would deal with Hamas.

Well let's start by saying that I'ce already answered this further upthread but I'll try again.

I expect one if the most highly sophisticated well funded security services and army in the world to be able to use ground forces and intelligence networks & massive funding to find Hamas operatives & attempt to bring them to justice. If they are unable to take them alive so be it, but they should try. I won't cry for Hamas terrorists if they are killed in the process.

I expect sympathy, aid and help for the civilians of Gaza.

What I don't expect is the breaking of international law

What I don't expect is collective punishment of 2.2 million people for the crimes of a terrorist org.

What I do expect is an elected government of Israel to not indiscriminately punish and murder a population that is mostly children.

Including of course the 130 premature babies in hospital in Gaza currently in imminent danger of death due to lack of fuel because it's been switched off.

Switched off by the of the so-called "human beings " in power in Israel.

That clear enough .

@Alcemeg doesn't give Israel a free pass.

Israel's war crimes are far far far worse than that of a terrorist organisation.

We know terrorists are despicable - that's a given. We know Hamas are pure evil. That's a given.

We expect Israel to behave as a democratic elected ally & obey international law & The Geneva Convention.

Right now the tactic appears to be " it's ok we'll just kill everyone & hope we get Hamas & added bonus we'll get Gaza. Woohoo."

This is a good (if depressing ) article in The Herald

www.heraldscotland.com/life_style/23871192.dangerous-days-now-lie-ahead-middle-east/