For people who say I stand with Israel

[sprinklesprinkle]

What does that mean to you? Especially for Jewish people who are happy to answer.

I know what Free Palestine means - it has always meant freedom for Palestinians, peace, basic human rights such as water, the right to life essentially.

I Stand with Israel - what exactly does this mean?

I am genuinely not being 'goady" to use a MN word but I want to learn & understand. I know many will say not to have Israelis attacked at a festival or for the hostages to be released but what is the long term goal for those that support what the Israeli government is doing. What do you want for Palestinians?

@lavender2023

I wasn't talking about Britain at all really, or its empire. I was talking about western civilization. Also not the American empire, which is also in decline as you say. Separate but related processes.

Yes. They can’t know what they are demanding, this destruction of the West. Our lives are as they are due to the values we enjoy.

I know. I swear blind the educational system has systematically destroyed critical thinking over the past 20 odd years.

this has been compounded by social media having a left pseudo liberal slant (as a way of marketing to the young generation)

We seriously need to start addressing these attitudes in education. I was looking at a course recently at a top university. Basically a history course and it started “anti colonialism, feminism and anti racism will be at the heart of this course” this had nothing to do with the course and IMO would significantly impact on the accurate teaching of the materials.

Political aims are increasingly being seen as more important than truth these days.

I would like to see compulsory teaching on critical thinking introduced into the curriculum.

I would like to see less political activism in the classroom.

You can see it on here, people don’t think, they don’t research, all they do is repeat social media mantras. I mean we’ve had someone talking about the effects of Roman occupation of Ireland🤦‍♀️. Statements that the Jews must have stolen the land off someone else 2500 odd years ago🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️.

You should have to have a license to use the internet.

The worst thing is is that women will be the ones who will be most greatly affected. Pseudo liberalism is tied to misogyny. Even third (and fourth) wave “feminism” (I use the phrase feminism very reluctantly here).

I can’t understand how or why people who put forward these views, especially women, can’t see it!

The perennial attraction of playing white saviour is too great, it outweighs everything else.

You are right.
The western civilization dies in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. It took a huge effort to create a post war international human right legal structure which is disappearing in front of us. And the biggest actors to blame for this is the western left. By embracing multiculturalism and inclusivity we are feeding human being to animals.

Social media is another factor

Empty words often

It's really odd to centre western civilization around Auschwitz. Ironically, that's actually one of the central 'narratives' of those working to end western civilization. They argue that it's so uniquely evil that it has to die. Day by day I suspect even some of them are starting to observe that the alternative is not exactly going to be utopia for anyone, least of all the Jews.

Yes it's a great way to distribute meaningless soundbites to people with damaged attention spans.

Thank you LemonyTicket** as always very informative historical insight!

"They seek only an oppressive, authoritarian Muslim led ethno state where anyone but them has no privilege."

I see 🤔. Sounds familiar

I am not Jewish and normally take no interest in politics or religion.

Is anyone actually saying “I stand with Israel,” as though we fully support the Israeli government and every policy it has ever adopted? Can anyone ever feel that way about any country?

But OK, yes, if you wish: “I stand for Israel.” For me, this means that they’re in an impossible situation and I fully support their struggle to find a way out of it.

They are trying to deal with a neighbouring country governed by terrorists who literally want to annihilate them. The Hamas Covenant, according to Wikipedia, “proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children.”

That’s a moronic recipe for endless misery and conflict, and yet Israel is berated for somehow not having found a solution over the years, as though they could have struck a deal with these nutters who have never been interested in striking a deal.

The suffering of the people in Gaza is blamed on Israel, yet it’s Hamas who have fucked them over completely. I can understand Israel’s reluctance to approve plans to dig a well if Gaza is riddled with underground tunnels, capillaries feeding the Hamas network. And Hamas base their rocket launch sites around schools, nurseries and mosques, instead of creating missile defence systems like Israel’s “iron dome.” They literally use their most vulnerable people as human shields. Yet the death of every Gazan child is blamed on Israel.

The IDF’s task of trying to destroy this enemy is rather like trying to treat a body riddled with cancer. The UN has criticised Israel’s warning to evacuate northern Gaza, but what else are they supposed to do? They’ve given people a chance. Hamas, of course, has told everyone to stay put, so that they can keep using them as shields. Whatever “collateral damage” (a ghastly euphemism) emerges from this conflict, I place the blame with Hamas, not Israel.

There’s a lot of talk about numbers, as though what matters is the tally of deaths and supporting Israel is somehow discounting the number of children (etc) killed in Gaza, insinuating that “Palestinian lives are worth less” etc. Are people really too stupid to tell the difference between babies accidentally killed during conflict and babies deliberately dismembered in front of their parents, or sliced from the womb? The difference between people dying in a missile attack and people being deliberately hunted for hours on end, raped, tortured, mutilated, burned alive?

All this without even mentioning the threat of Hezbollah.

The true liberation of Palestine is not the destruction of Israel, but the destruction of Hamas and similar malignant organisations. Unfortunately, I doubt this is possible. Religious fanaticism, perverted into murderous dogma, will probably always exist, for as long as there are weak minds to embrace it.

If I could wave a wand, I’d crate a lovely island somewhere for Israel to relocate to, where they can live in peace and leave their psychopathic neighbours to enjoy their mayhem.

Why don’t you hold the IDF who have been committing genocide for decades to the same standard?
they are the military authority there not the other way round
comparing criticism of an apartheid state to the holocaust is ridiculous and disgusting
Also equating Hamas = all of Palestine is deeply racist and Islamophobic

What absolute garbage

Wow @LemonyTicket . If anyone had swapped your word "Muslim" for Jewish you'd be crying antisemitism. It really doesn't work both ways, does it? 🤔

This thread is starting to sound like an EDL meeting

I do not understand how anyone in their right minds think Israel has any alternative.
Do you want to live in a world ruled by Islamic extremists?

What a heap of bollocks. Pointing out that there was Muslim imperialist conquest of swathes of the world is not racist.

Neither is pointing out there was Catholic imperialist conquest, European imperialist conquest, nor any other.

It's historical fact.

Doesn't quite fit your narrative mind huh.

Unfortunately, destroying this islamic extremist group would just mean that more islamic fundamentalist groups are created due to the pain and suffering. Israel has been in a state of permanent war during this past 70 years. Israel isn't America, do they want to continue in this state of permanent war.

'A professor in the Department of Public Policy of Tel Aviv University, and founder of its Shoresh Institution for Socioeconomic Research, Ben-David is a data person. Meetings with him are a carpet bombing of graphs, numbers, curves and percentages. But if one had to select just one number from among those he cites, it might well be 397,744. That’s what you get when you add to the number of senior faculty members employed by Israel’s research universities (8,142), the numbers of physicians (29,803) and of people employed in high-tech (359,799). According to the data of the Innovation Authority, 30 percent of those in high-tech are not technological staff, which brings the number Ben-David is referring to down to approximately 290,000.

If this group is pushed beyond the limits of its collective capacity, many of its members will activate the ejection seat. We will watch them land via a golden parachute elsewhere, while the plane we’re on heads for a crash. “All that’s needed to bring about ruination,” he says, “is for a few tens of thousands to get up and leave.

Ben-David adds that the two highest economic deciles in Israel pay about 92 percent of the income tax – a sharp rise since the year 2000, when they were the source of 83 percent of the income tax. Those people – 20 percent of the population – are not necessarily millionaires. “The average monthly income in the ninth [highest] decile is 19,000 shekels gross [$5,200],” he notes. “They are people who see themselves as the middle of the Israeli middle class of Israel. Sometimes they have a hard time making ends meet. And it’s on their shoulders that the whole load falls.””

We are looking at a future now where 50% of Israeli children would be haredi and arabs who perform far below their counterparts in the neighbouring arab countries. These are the children who would form the tax base to pay for the future wars. Wars are not cheap. If there is no solution for peace and also no solution to the narrow tax base/education problem, then Israel would cease to exist.

Israel has to make peace not because it values arab lives, but because it has no other choice if it wants to exist. The mantra of 'it will all be all right' does not work in a world where America is no longer top dog.

We all talk of the defense of western civilisation but half of Israeli children do not have access to western level education and the majority of Israeli adults do not earn western incomes. If you want to defend western civilisation, you need western incomes.

I have a Jewish background and whilst I don't agree with everything Israel has done and I feel desperately sorry for ordinary Palestinian people especially the children,, I do support Israel, the only democracy in the middle East. Surrounded by enemies they have no choice but to defend themselves.

Maybe if the Arab nations recognised Israel and didn’t make it clear time and time again their wish to destroy Israel then there could be peace.

Unfortunately for many of these extremist/terrorist groups only total annihilation of Israel would lead to peace.

We need to call it as it is. This is no a fight against oh so nasty Israel creating a feeling of oppression, it is a war against the very existence of Israel.

I’m sorry to interrupt the narrative running round in your head/you’ve copied and pasted off social media. But you have no idea what my views on the IDF.

Secondly, pleas point out where I have equated Hamas with all Palestinians! I’ll safe you the trouble - no where.

nothing I’ve said is Islamophobic. You, however, throwing the word round eats into its power that can be used where true islamaphobia occurs. But it’s not a magic word to shut down reasonable debate!

@lavender2023
And your point is???
Nobody but extremists want war. Of course war is expensive but what do you propose as the alternative?

Oh I know let's just

• keep refusing any peace settlements

-send in rockets, suicide bombers and now murdering gang rapists who behead and burn alive and things so vile the papers won't print them, -take 220 hostages

We’re basically seeing the mantras on the barn wall! 4 legs good, two legs bad. One day these people will turn round and the words will read four legs good, two legs even better. The pigs will be sleeping in the beds. Then they will be too unsure of themselves to be able to understand, let alone voice concerns about the situation