For people who say I stand with Israel

[sprinklesprinkle]

What does that mean to you? Especially for Jewish people who are happy to answer.

I know what Free Palestine means - it has always meant freedom for Palestinians, peace, basic human rights such as water, the right to life essentially.

I Stand with Israel - what exactly does this mean?

I am genuinely not being 'goady" to use a MN word but I want to learn & understand. I know many will say not to have Israelis attacked at a festival or for the hostages to be released but what is the long term goal for those that support what the Israeli government is doing. What do you want for Palestinians?

This?

@MissingMoominMamma
I mean, nothing about that is accurate. Well done on showing a "today" map that even Hamas would laugh at you for believing to be true

Ok- then can you show one which is accurate?

The German people didn't start WW2, the Nazis did.

If WW2 hadn't been fought and won by the Allies, those of us in UK would all be living under a fascist regime now and speaking German.
And there wouldn't have been a single Jew left alive in UK.

This was the cost;

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/students-teachers/student-resources/research-starters/research-starters-worldwide-deaths-world-war

@Rubbishagain
Free Palestine = kill the Jews

It doesn't mean anything else. When they are done with us they won't be especially interested in you.

I appreciate and understand what you’re saying. On a day to day basis however the Palestinians have to contend with checkpoints and the violence of IDF towards everyone. Their homes and land is constantly being stolen and they have no way to improve their lives because they are having to rehome displaced families and rebuild every year after Israel has bombed them. This situation didn’t start in October. It has gone on for decades and Palestinians are dealing with an Apartheid regime. The carpet bombing and use of phosphorus bombs is also abhorrent. The Palestinians literally have nothing left to lose and they’ve had enough of this treatment

When they are done with the Jews we are all doomed.

Oh I can interpret things very logically. You wrote “the actions of Hamas can be justified” I correctly interpreted that, it tied in with your overall anti Israeli stance, there was nothing illogical about it

Not sure why “it was a typo” is so difficult to understand.

Free Palestine = kill the Jews

Nope

I mean, nothing about that is accurate
🙄

That's not true.

'We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me," Zahar said in the video that was published on MEMRI TV in December of 2022,

“The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries," he said.

WATCH: Israel is only the first target, warns Hamas commander - The Jerusalem Post (jpost.com)

It suits Hamas for the Palestinians to be in this situation. No energy left to revolt against them due to displacement and rebuilding and there’s always indefinite prison for those who do complain. I’m sure if they stopped firing rockets at Israel, Israel would stop firing rockets at them. Isn’t that what they agreed at the ceasefire in May? I am very sympathetic to the Palestinians but it’s not fair to frame this as the Israelis sole responsibility. It’s disrespectful to all those who want peace.

Perhaps the checkpoints might disappear if the aggressive attacks stopped.

Here you go @MissingMoominMamma

That will take centuries though. Which is time enough for future generations of non-Jewish westerners, assuming that's who you mean by we, to regain some sanity. I'm pessimistic about our prospects, but it's possible.

@Pollyputhekettleon I really hope you’re right. I’m not Jewish but I feel like Western Liberals have lost their minds over this and I am in despair. I feel like the West is slowly committing suicide.

It is. I don't think there's really any question about that. All civilizations reach the end of their road eventually, and this end is the logical playing out of both the strengths and weaknesses of ours.

It’s almost like you would put up a strictly controlled boarder between your country and Gaza to stop them entering your country especially as they want to destroy it.

Britain's world dominance ended with the Suez Crisis and the subsequent dismantling of its empire. We have far less global power than we used to have. However, I would argue that the UK sans empire/global power is far better for its ordinary people if you compare the lifestyle of a working class person in 1830 vs now, they have a far greater share of the national wealth than before and a better social safety net. Israel has traditionally been dominated by different powers- Ottoman Empire, the British Empire and then the Americans. Now that America's global power is waning and we are switching to multi polar order, it hardly means that the West is necessarily in decline- in fact it may be the best thing for its people as they can focus more on domestic issues rather than being the world's policeman. However, a multipolar world does mean a more dangerous world as countries in each region vie for dominance. And of course its not good for Israel.

I don’t think we are talking about the UK here, it’s the beginning of the end of the dominance of western civilisation.

With every passing day I’m increasingly convinced there’s a contingent within western society that wants to destroy western culture. Not just in the current scenario, but basically want to eradicate everything that has been achieved in the West.

Theres a hatred of capitalism and success. I think a lot of it starts in universities. There’s more opportunity to write books and papers arguing that things are terrible rather than celebrating success.

Why? Are you suggesting the end of freedom and democracy?

Capitalism is hardly unique to the West. Look up Asian Tigers. What is unique in the West is that the post world war 2 economic boom meant unprecedented wealth that helped foster individualist thinking, nuclear families. All this is fine and good with economic growth and increasing incomes. Of course all economic booms come to an end and now many western countries are struggling to deal with the twin problems of low economic growth and the problems of supporting a population of (ageing) individualists solely with a threadbare state welfare system (given that the extended family network is no longer a thing).

Of course many people would see this as a decline and there is a lot of debate on how we can readdress this shortfall. Of course the top 0.1% of society is now reaching rockefeller levels of wealth and given that we no longer want to return to the past of soup kitchens, almshouses and 3 generations under one roof, people are trying to think of new solutions.

@Maatandosiris I’m agreeing with you, some of the most powerful and influential people in Western institutions seem to hate and despise everything the West stands for and I find it terrifying. Where do people think that the statement “Free Palestine” ends given that one of the first requirements of this would be the obliteration of the State of Israel.

I think the Afghanistan/Iraq war radicalized many in my generation to believe that intervention in the middle east is inherently a 'bad' thing. I am Jewish but I am not convinced what the current Israeli government/Biden is doing is the right thing. hamas would certainly have booby trapped the entire of gaza, lots of Israeli lives are going to be lost there.

Now bibi is talking of bombing iran to get rid of the head of the snake, how is this good for the Israeli people. I am convinced he is doing this to ensure his political survival because he knows he is toast once the war is over. I hope that behind the scenes, Biden and co are being firm with him rather than pandering to him. Certainly if they are secretly egging him on, western intervention is doing more harm than good.