To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

[MistyMooPup]

Not all of Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will obliterate Hamas. But undoubtedly hundred if not thousands of civilians will now be killed.

I’m not sure what Hamas thought the end game if this would be? What have the Iranians convinced them of? This was a sophisticated operation, outside help was given for definite.

I’m not sure it’s possible to rationalise with dehumanised terrorists, neither am I sure what the end game will be, but I just can’t understand what Hamas expected if not a total war/strikes from Israel in retaliation.

You refuse to say why the Arabs refused to give them 500 square miles in 1938. I get it. And you continue to insist it was simply 'their' land, when you're well aware the Jews were there as long as they were, if not longer, and it was equally theirs. All of this is of course why the current conflict exists, and anyone who genuinely wants it to end can observe that.

Yes
Hopefully he is replaced by someone who actually wants peace and now just power. By someone who treats the Palestinians in the west bank fairly.
By someone who will hold the IDF to account for their crimes that they commit daily
By someone who will free all the innocent children locked up by Israel that are being held without trial

Frankly the UN should step in after the war is over and administer Gaza. Israel should be free of any responsibility towards it. The place and its inhabitants are a danger to a democracy like Israel.

You say
Hate breeds hate. Terror breeds terror
and post this as an example.

Do you really think you're comparing apples with apples here?

The incident you've shared was reported soberly in the Times of Israel; condemned as "contrary to what was expected of soldiers and commanders in the IDF"; and the commander of the unit has been dismissed, while the incident continues to be investigated by military police.

That's not quite the same as Hamas's (and, sadly, not just Hamas's) jubilant response to the recent attacks in Israel.

And the attacks themselves are not in the same league. To be honest, considering this incident happened just a few days later, it is hardly even tit for tat. One of these three victims was threatened with anal rape using a pole; he did not, like some of the recent victims of Hamas, have his pelvic bones shattered by repeated use of blunt instruments. None of these three men had their limbs or genitals cut off, their eyes shot out; they were not burned alive. They did not watch their children being butchered; their wife did not have a baby sliced from her womb. Above all, they lived to tell the tale.

Of course, Gaza has legitimate grievances against Israel. But THIS...? You think THIS is justified? Yes or no?

Of course, Gaza has long suffered at the hands of Israel. Both sides have dodgy leadership. But one of the reasons the Nova festivalgoers didn't immediately panic is that rocket attacks from Gaza are so commonplace. If Israel didn't have shields in place, more damage would be done. Hamas could afford similar shields, if it ever gave a shit about the people of Gaza.

I started off thinking "Ah yes, well, Israel..." etc. Of course I did; I'm one of those "everything has two sides" goody-two-shoes. But the more I learned, the more I understand that a line has been crossed here, and if no one can see it but the immediate victims, I despair for the future of humanity. People who can do this to another human being are not to be tolerated, let alone supported, much less congratulated.

What's happened is an invitation to take sides, not with Israel or Gaza, but with humanity vs terrorism.

@Pollyputhekettleon Yes, I know it's not that simple. I wish it was! (as I mentioned in a much earlier post... I'm shocked that you're not hanging onto my every word here!!!😜)

I did not for one second say the attack by Hamas was justified. I have condemned the attack on innocent civilians over and over again on various threads.
What I was highlighting is the continuous oppression over many years of the Palestinians of the west bank
And that it's getting worse day by day which eventually may lead to another catastrophic incident. And the example I gave is one of thousands
It's a daily occurrence for them

I started off thinking "Ah yes, well, Israel..." etc. Of course I did; I'm one of those "everything has two sides" goody-two-shoes. But the more I learned, the more I understand that a line has been crossed here, and if no one can see it but the immediate victims, I despair for the future of humanity. People who can do this to another human being are not to be tolerated, let alone supported, much less congratulated.

I had the same reaction as you. I've been critical of Israel for years (some of which I stand by as justified, some of which was knee-jerk assumptions and lack of knowledge from my lefty student days).
I was scrolling twitter on the Sunday morning and saw the footage of Shani Louk and that was it for me. I knew there could be no excuse for that, or for the further atrocities that were revealed over the next few days. I assumed that most people bar some hardline extremists would agree and I was really shocked and disappointed at the widespread justification of something so obscene, the "but" after the condemnation, and now how quickly the rest of the world seems to have forgotten it happened.

@Alcemeg what hamas did was terrible in every way. It should never have happened. But these things don't just happen out of nowhere. And the horrific treatment aswell as the continuous land grabbing by the settlers in the west bank is another recipe for disaster, if Israel does not step up in stopping these crimes rather than being complicit in them

what hamas did was terrible in every way. It should never have happened. But these things don't just happen out of nowhere.

There's the but. There shouldn't be one. Not for that.

That is your opinion
There's many on here who say it's sad that hundreds of children in gaza have been killed, that fathers are carrying the parts of whatever is left over of their children in carrier bags BUT what else can Israel do?
And that is a 'but' that I and many others do not agree with
There is pain on both sides

The blood of some innocent children do not matter more than the blood of others

That's a "Yes" then... OK.

"Collateral damage" is a horrible term for a horrible thing that happens in wartime, which is always horrible.

What happened here is something else.

To borrow a phrase from Game of Thrones : everything before the word ‘But ‘ is horseshit.
Nothing, absolutely nothing, can excuse or explain the savagery that was inflicted by Hamas.
They need exterminating. There is no place in an even vaguely civilised world for them.
I just can’t fathom those who either ignore what they did or, even worse, try and say it didn’t happen, the mass slaughter of Families wasn’t real. They could be shown footage of the rape and torture and they would still deny it/ say it was fake.

There must have been specific orders given to different groups, for either wholesale murder or to take hostages, there wouldn’t have been time during the carnage, to filter out say, Americans, to take as hostages.

@Alcemeg are you saying the collective punishment of over 2million people, of which approximately half are innocent children is justified because of the actions of their government?

I'm saying that the actions of Hamas (and/or their lack of protective action) are as much to blame for the suffering of the Gazans as anything Israel has done.

I'm saying that Hamas represents a level of barbarism that does not belong in the 21st century and I am wondering WTF happens next if people just sit back and go "Fair play."

Hamas must be taken out I agree, for the safety of Israelis and for a better life for the Palestinians in gaza. But will Israel achieve this with its continuous war crimes?
No I really don't think so

There is no hope if people are too stupid to differentiate between the dreadful human cost of ‘collateral damage’ and the utter barbarity of seeking out civilians and DELIBERATELY gouging children’s eyes out, disembowelling and beheading pregnant Women, tying up whole families and burning them to death.
Yes, the end result is death in both scenarios but the latter is FAR worse.

Sure, the misery will just go on, for more centuries to come.

What might make a difference is if the people of Gaza themselves rejected Hamas. What are the chances of that, do you think?

I know it's never going to happen. I'm just thinking out loud.

It's a bit like that nutty friend someone always invites to a party and everyone puts up with him getting drunk and talking shit and being an utter wanker, and then one night he starts attacking everyone with a hammer. At that point you would think everyone, friend or foe, would kick him out.

Absolutely agree. Why some people on here are still "yes, but Israel" is beyond me. The savagery of the Hamas attacks makes me feel physically ill. Hamas started a war; the responsibility for what's happening sits with Hamas. What do people expect Israel to do in the face of such barbarity? And we all know that if they hadn't been killed, those Hamas terrorists would not have stopped until they tortured and murdered every single Israeli. That's the reality of this.

@Parkingt111 can I ask if you've engaged much with the October 7 attacks? Do you know the details?

Israel should take their time. There is no need to jump to the provocation of Hamas who seek outrage. If the Israeli s plan their attack and destruction of terrorist infrastructure carefully they will succeed. They can be smart and win this.

Then someone else can take over Gaza. How can anyone imagine that their totalitarian attitudes are worth defending is beyond me.

The people of Gaza live under occupation
They don't have the privilege that we do.
They have two choices, to side with the government who says they are looking out for their best interests of their occupiers.
In terms of what they think of Hamas I really don't know.
Especially after the recent attacks if their views have changed because of the aftermath I really don't know

Shall I give you my honest answer. Not at the start
I don't actually know any Jewish people on a personal level. The Jewish people I interact with are on mumsnet. Initially despite being horrified I would mostly see see the Palestinian side. Since interacting with some Jewish posters on mumsnet i have been making an active effort to read the stories of the survivors and reading Jewish papers online. And it is terrible

Hand on heart I want the ordinary Jewish civilians to be able to live in safety the same way I do for the Palestinians

But I don't think that this war will achieve that and I don't agree with the way the Palestinians in the west bank are treated by Israel. I don't agree with the blockade. And I can't continue to watch the bloodshed and say its for a greater cause I just can't

@SomeCatFromJapan the Jewish AMA on here was fascinating for me to read. Everyday I would tell my husband what I had learnt and how suprised I was on how many of our teachings were so similar.
I did alot of research and would read up about alot of what was mentioned on there.
We have many of the same prophets like dawud and Musa and Sulayman alayhis salam (may peace be upon them) which are coincidentally the names of three of my nephews.
So no I am not a jew hater contrary to what some may think

@Alcemeg Haha yes fair enough. I shall pay more attention in future...

The illegality of terrorist group actions is always clear. They're crimes.

But the actions of States is less clear cut due to their objectives so there's a greater range of possible explanations including the complicating factor of the terrorist group's actions.

In this case, Hamas' Use Of Human Shields In Gaza.

Even so, you along with a few here consistently state Israel has committed war crimes. The UN hasn't actually stated this as you can see in the attachment where the word "MAY" is highlighted.

The UN isn't even the body who judges whether something is a war crime or not. That's the job of the International Criminal Court.

In short, you cannot state with such confidence that the State carried out war crimes unless an investigation concludes with a judgement.