To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

[MistyMooPup]

Not all of Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will obliterate Hamas. But undoubtedly hundred if not thousands of civilians will now be killed.

I’m not sure what Hamas thought the end game if this would be? What have the Iranians convinced them of? This was a sophisticated operation, outside help was given for definite.

I’m not sure it’s possible to rationalise with dehumanised terrorists, neither am I sure what the end game will be, but I just can’t understand what Hamas expected if not a total war/strikes from Israel in retaliation.

That's how I feel that there is a grey area where you can't describe Israel's actions as crimes. Hamas, yes, definitely. They murdered, raped and tortured civilians. We are talking deliberately, specific and targeted. I agree with the notion of collateral damage, as bloody awful and sad it is. The two states of behaviour, we have seen are NOT comparable.

Hamas are the criminals. The army are doing what they feel is the only easiest and quickest way to eliminate Hamas. This can't be allowed to escalate further.

You are right about the ICC. I stand corrected

However I'm sure you must be aware that Israel is not a member of the ICC and rejects its findings. It has in the past refused to co-operate with them and rejected their investigations

@Parkingt111 thanks for answering thoughtfully.

I have long had genuine sympathy with the Palestinian issue. I was really upset by the 2014 conflict, which blew up out of something much smaller than this (not to dismiss the lives of the three young men killed by Hamas or the subsequent revenge killing of the young Palestinian man, but clearly it was not on this scale).

When the suicide bombings were taking place, I certainly did not condone them as many were civilian-targetted but I could understand that there was a level of desperation there for people to be prepared to use their own body as a weapon (although radicalisation did clearly play a part as well).

But 7 October crossed a line for me. And we obviously differ here but for me the actions were so monstrous that there could be no justification. That is why I asked if you knew much of the details about them.

The current situation in Gaza with the airstrikes and the blocking of water, aid etc is both deeply upsetting to witness and so inevitable that I'm almost beyond having an opinion on it beyond deep pity for those affected. I do fervently hope that the situation for the civilians eases very soon.

I think where we most differ is the level of blame we are or are not attributing to Hamas for the events occuring.

I'm very certain we both hope for an outcome that will allow everyone in the region to live in peace and safety.

I really do hope so that peace can be achieved. Ofcourse we have our differences but the ultimate goal and hope is the same

Genuine question. In your opinion what would be the easiest way to take out hamas? Bombing or by ground invasion?
What would cause the least collateral damage? Its not a trick question or trying to catch you out, it's something I have been thinking of myself

I really don't know and don't have the experience or qualifications to comment.
I presume the tactics would have been well thought through, including the sad, inevitable decision where more fatalities would ensue.

At a basic level guess, ground invasion would be slower but less casualties. Bombing, quicker and penetrative? Unless we are weaponry experts, it's difficult.

It's a heart v head scenario I guess.

Thank you for the honest answer. With the current methods I see all it has done is gain huge criticism from people all over the world. Generally most of the people I see supporting Israels current stance is mostly the Israeli citizens themselves alongside other Jewish people and the western allies, although I see even from them the tone is changing.
There is alot of 'not in my name' amongst the young Jewish population as shown in Greta's latest instagram Post

London saw one of the largest pro Palestinian marches today. Not only London but all around the UK and globally

Update from today's peace summit held in Egypt
Suprised there didn't seem to be anyone notable from the USA there

Mass Ground invasion would be messy and cost a lot of IDF lives, they would be fighting house to house, street by street and the tunnels are everywhere. They don’t know where the hostages are so can’t just destroy the tunnels wholesale, some are 200 ft deep, which risks Hamas fighters popping up behind them in an area already ‘cleared’. Drones probably won’t work underground either so they are tactically blind.
They have destroyed some tunnels, DH has seen footage on military sites.
It’s not like ‘normal’ warfare in built up areas. Hamas also like booby trapping the injured and dead, just like the Iraqis.

I imagine that’s part of the reason they haven’t gone in mob handed, yet.

I'll keep this short - there are NO easy solutions for taking out Hamas. It doesn't matter which option you mention - aerial or ground - both are difficult but different methods that result in death. Including unintentional deaths.

It will be ugly, slow and full of risk, including to Israel Defense Forces. There will be booby traps, including bombs attached to dead bodies which was a tactic done by PIRA in Northern Ireland. Hamas and PIRA trained in Libya.

If counter-terrorist specialists could surgically target and remove terrorists from within the civilian population, they would love that! Such a method would give full advantage to security forces everywhere.

But that method is the stuff of fantasy.

There is no other way.

Destroying Hamas is a dream, like achieving Paradise. But the first step is to stop excusing their bullshit.

Israel have just said that they are going to INCREASE air strikes

They have dropped leaflets which say this

Leaflets, dropped over Gaza City, come with a sinister warning: anyone who does not move south may end up being seen as what is described as an accomplice to a terrorist organisation.

That is literally forced displacement
And what about those who can't move for whatever reason? They will just be regarded as terrorists and killed?? Even those who are pro Israel must see how horrendous this is?
How many more babies must be killed?

I remember seeing on social media when these quadruplets were born. The other day I saw a picture of all four of them in their shrouds along with their mother and I can't get the image out of my head
How many more must die

And if you are of the view point that there death was a necessary evil in this war then I have no words
Let us remember their names
Maha
Khaled
Abdel khaleq
Mahmoud

As Muslims we have a belief that babies who pass away are cared for by the prophet Abraham may peace be upon him in the gardens of paradise, until the day they can be re united with their parents.
Whilst we mourn their loss, from this we can take a little comfort

Pollyputhekettleon · Today 13:08

What the Palestinians didn't do 80 years ago is irrelevant. I haven't said that no Jewish people were living there in the 40s, on the contrary, I've mentioned it on several of these threads. There were about 100,000 Jewish people, concentrated around the Jerusalem area.

There are now almost 7 million, by far and away the majority don't have local origins, but have immigrated, or are the descendants of immigrants and the land on which they live has been expunged of its rightful owners.

According to your logic, Russia was justified in taking the Donbas region, as its population was majority ethnic Russian. According to your logic, they must have an even better claim, because they've long been a majority.

No, the point is one you have failed to address, or tried to justify; the acquisition of land by force and deportations of populations is forbidden absolutely under the international laws and conventions of war.

Let's remember the names of the 200+ Israeli hostages, whose families don't know if they are alive or dead.

Oh no, we can't do that because the Pro-Palestinians pulled down their pictures to make them anonymous. My bad. 🙄

Ofcourse we must remember them too
You think I don't hope and pray for their safe return?

I have seen their names and pictures on the news. I have seen their families using their social media to advocate for them

Who do these babies have? They have no one to give them a voice. In this cruel war they will remain just a number. A statistic

@Bettyboopsbonnet
Oh no, we can't do that because the Pro-Palestinians pulled down their pictures to make them anonymous. My bad. 🙄

Also I have no idea what you are referring to here

Yes let’s. And that was very sad to see

From what I have read Israel 'getting rid of Hamas' from Gaza involves them

Finding the 2 Gaza based masterminds of the terror attack on Israel

Destroying the extensive network of tunnels underlying large parts of Gaza

Eliminating the 40k active Hamas fighters spread throughout Gaza

In such a densely populated area where people are already living precariously and cannot escape -this will inevitably lead to mass civilian casualties far in excess of the 4000+ who have died already. Giving warnings of bombing and moving 100s of thousands of people into safer areas will only partly ameliorate the loss of life and creates other problems

It's also a dangerous game of brinksmanship keeping the population just alive in the face of starvation, dehydration, no effective healthcare and could tip over so easily into massive loss of life

But this is the only way that Israel can rid itself of Hamas in Gaza

Obviously it won't remove Hamas influence from anyones mind or punish the leadership safe overseas

And it's a choice with the civilian casualties and worldwide public opinion 'priced-in'

It was disgusting. Ripping them up or writing over them. No matter what your beliefs, you just don't do that. All that does is reduce sympathy for oppressed Palestinians. Yeah, really clever move.

Yes, ripping and defacing the posters is utterly reprehensible.

Collateral damage is seen as the civilised way of murdering whole families without having to take responsibility. I really cannot see any difference to going into someone’s home and shooting a whole family dead or blowing them up. Maybe because it’s seen as less personal by the west? All these air strikes are just murdering civilians on a massive scale and no even touching Hamas ( the justification behind it all) My question, how many children can be murdered in order to get rid of Hamas. When will our politicians say enough is enough?

You understand the difference perfectly. It's about intent. Same as the difference on the individual level between deliberately, recklessly, carelessly or accidentally killing someone. We don't hold individuals who accidentally kill someone else morally or legally responsible. Beyond that we hold them responsible to different degrees depending on their intent.

It amazes me how people have such persistent trouble applying this to groups.

Maybe this will refresh your memory;

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12653811/palestine-supporters-tear-posters-missing-israeli-children-hamas-terrorists-kidnapped.html

https://talk.tv/news/31529/palestine-women-tear-down-posters-of-israelis-kidnapped-by-hamas

Pollyputthekettkeon I think you would have to be quite naïve to think there was no revenge bombing going on in Gaza at the moment. The idea, and this is a western moral belief as well that it ok to kill as many civilians ( Muslim) as you like in the hunt for terrorists is ok because their lives have no value compared to westerners is totally abhorrent. For me killing someone because they have no value or killing someone out of revenge is just as bad surely.