To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

[MistyMooPup]

Not all of Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will obliterate Hamas. But undoubtedly hundred if not thousands of civilians will now be killed.

I’m not sure what Hamas thought the end game if this would be? What have the Iranians convinced them of? This was a sophisticated operation, outside help was given for definite.

I’m not sure it’s possible to rationalise with dehumanised terrorists, neither am I sure what the end game will be, but I just can’t understand what Hamas expected if not a total war/strikes from Israel in retaliation.

Oh for goodness sake. Israel has not stolen anything. Why not actually read and learn about the settlement and the ensuing actions of the neighbouring countries to Israel? You have a fixed view which won't be changed by the realities of history. Whereas most people on here actually do read and learn and have an understanding of the complexity. Israel exists and it will continue to exist.

Pollyputhekettleon · Today 08:22

You're accusing me of not understanding the origins of the conflict? I've been following it for 30 years or so.

I said you didn't seem too interested in it. But as you've studied it so much, why did the Arabs refuse to give them 500 square miles in 1938? Don't you think that would have been a very simple gesture of remorse for centuries of dhimmitude from the majority population?

soddingspiderseason

Oh for goodness sake. Israel has not stolen anything. Why not actually read and learn about the settlement and the ensuing actions of the neighbouring countries to Israel? You have a fixed view which won't be changed by the realities of history.

I refer you to this, paying special attention to Clause 4, on annexation of territory.

Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.

Its quite evident that you have read very little on the subject, as it is an unequivocal fact that the acquisition of land by means of war is a war crime. Also, the forced deportation of a population and replacing them with your own is a war crime and a crime against humanity.

This is precisely what Israel has been doing since the beginning. Nobody with an iota of knowledge of the situation could say otherwise, not with a straight face.

And if you read what I've written, you will not find that I have said that Israel shouldn't exist, anywhere, ever. I've come to my conclusions by reading about it for years, reports from both sides of the fence.

It's the people who say that Israel does no wrong, has done no wrong and is entitled to take the land of their neighbours, "Because they started it! who are lacking any understanding of the situation.

Don't you think that would have been a very simple gesture of remorse for centuries of dhimmitude from the majority population?

Perhaps they should have given a country to the Maronites, as well? Perhaps the UK should give Catholic Irish people a chunk of England?

The French did give the Maronites a state intended to be explicitly Christian where they could hopefully live in peace after centuries of religious oppression - Lebanon. Didn't end so well as you know.

'After World War I the French established Lebanon as a homeland for Christians who had been hiding in its mountains since the advent of Islam...After one particularly bad anti-Christian pogrom in 1860—and subsequent intervention by Britain and France—the Ottoman Empire gave Lebanon’s historic autonomy the force of law.'

Lebanon’s Discontent Has Religious Roots - WSJ

Are you claiming Irish people were living in England before the English? As an Irish person I do quite fancy the Cotswolds but I think we'd have to do some major rewriting of the history books to pull that one off.

Oh and as you'd expect the Christians' neighbours also opposed them being given any state on their native land after the Ottoman collapse, just as they opposed the Jews being given one:

'Sixty years later, the French took possession and moved the country toward independence over the objections of local Muslims who wanted to remain part of Greater Syria'

I suppose that attitude isn't surprising really since dhimmitude was only ended by the Ottomans after the Crimean War under pressure from Europeans. Still, you'd think there'd have been sufficient remorse about it on the part of the beneficiaries by the 1920's that the desire of the native formerly subject populations for sovereignty would have been understood and respected.

Bickering about who started it doesn't serve anyone, though. Making sense of centuries depends too much on perspective and timescale.

The real question is: How do we stop Hamas?

Will the Palestinian people reject what's being done in their name? (I can understand reluctance to stick your neck out, if you might get your head chopped off.) Will they draw a line in the sand? If not, things will get worse before they ever get any better, and I shudder to think what worse could look like 😔

When we look at maps over the course of history, borders change time and time again as various wars and occupations rage on. It is unlikely that we are living in an age when that has stopped. I would not be suprised if 100 or 200 years from now the borders in the middle east look different than they do now. This war is far from over and I don't think the rest of the middle east will settle for Israel obliterating Palestine from the map entirely. There will be more fighting to give Palestinians a place to live. Even if Israel manages to kill all the Palestinians in Gaza and take over all of the West Bank, there are millions more Palestinians who are already displaced in living in other countries. Just like Jews fought to create a homeland, others will do the same. History repeats itself. They killed the Jews and the remnants then rose up and took back and claimed land. Now similar is happening to Palestinians. The destruction of Palestine will likely lead to greater radicalization and nationalism amongst surviving Palestinians. They were held captive, and are now being killed and will likely rise up again at some point. Similar to the Zionist movement that led to the wars that gave Jews Israel, in time a similar movement may happen for Palestinians.

It's not a question of who started it. It's a matter of understanding the motives of all of the participants, how they view the land, its inhabitants and their rights. You can't possibly understand Qatar's support of Hamas, for example, unless you understand that Qatar is an Islamic state which continues to treat non-muslims as second class citizens today. This isn't simply about the Palestinians.

How to stop Hamas also isn't the question. They're one group among many, and not all terrorists even belong to any group. You end Hamas and all the rest remain.

@Alcemeg
Nothing will improve whilst the Israeli government and settlers comtinue to treat the Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza as inhumanely as they do now. And let's nor forget the continuous terrorising and land grabbing by the settlers
Hate breeds hate. Terror breeds terror
Just one example below from the times of Israel

@Alcemeg https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-settlers-alleged-to-bind-strip-beat-burn-and-pee-on-palestinians-in-w-bank/

This is clearly an awful incident and certainly there is depravity on both sides however this seems to be more of an isolated incident and about the anger and actions of the specific soldiers than an organized effort. I do think that most of the IDF seethes with a similar level of hatred towards Palestinians as Hamas does towards Israelis however the IDF has tried to channel that hate into more acceptable means of killing and harm to keep on the right side of the west. I doubt they would condone this action.

@Pollyputhekettleon pol you really seem to have some sort of obsession with Qatar

Maybe look closer to home on how the Palestinians are treated by Israel. Or is human rights watch not a credible source for you

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

Soddingspiderseason

Polly

Are you claiming Irish people were living in England before the English

You both seem to be missing my points rather spectacularly. Why do you think that Israel is legally justified in taking every dunam of Palestinian territory and expelling them, with no chance of ever returning?

When international law is quite explicit that this is utterly forbidden?

@Pollyputhekettleon what do you say about the IDF accompanying settlers and giving them protection whilst they murder innocent civilians?
And then murder mourners at their funeral?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67173344

@Pollyputhekettleon incase you don't want to read the whole article. And this is not an isolated incident. Settler violence against palestinians is horrendous all whilst being given protection by the IDF and Israel

@Pollyputhekettleon wasn't one of the reasons it took so long for the IDF to respond to the Hamas attack, because they were too busy protecting the settlers who were up to their usual violent and provocative antics against the palestinians in the west bank?

What does Israel think? That this will continue and they will get no reaction?

I asked you why the Arabs refused to give the Jews even 500 square miles for their state in 1938. I said: 'Don't you think that would have been a very simple gesture of remorse for centuries of dhimmitude from the majority population?'

You said in response: 'Perhaps they should have given a country to the Maronites, as well? Perhaps the UK should give Catholic Irish people a chunk of England?'

When I pointed out that the French did give the Maronites a Christian state, and how that ended up, and that your analogy with Ireland was completely inappropriate because Jews were living on the land all along as second class citizens, you change the subject again.

I intend to continue to talk about the root causes of this conflict and the motivations of all sides. I understand some people would rather not, for obvious reasons.

That the Palestinians will just sit quietly whilst Israel and settlers snatch away whole villages homes and livelihood
Shame on Israel

Pollyputhekettleon · Today 12:44

Conversations evolve, it's hardly changing the subject. And you speak about second class citizens, whilst dismissing the way in which the British treated Northern Irish Catholics.

You're the one who won't answer, regarding the current and long-running Israeli actions, to wit, stealing the land of the Palestinians; instead, you have deflected by saying how horrible the Palestinians were not to have given some of their land away, 80 years ago.

The Netanyahu Era is definitely paving the way for Israel to become more and more of an apartheid state
These are some parallels drawn between apartheid south Africa and Israel. The author of the article for long rejected the notion that Israel was heading that way but can finally see the truth

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/19/israel-apartheid-state-south-africa-netanyahu

Sorry, Polly , I forgot. I'm talking about the current situation, not what ifs, from 80 years ago.

Times reported this week that 4 out of 5 Israelis blame Netanyahu for this war. Israel has a perfect right to defend itself but his leadership is problem.

Let him win this war and when peace comes, he should be thrown out by his fellows for his incompetence in seeking power over the safety of his people. He has the West's reluctant backing but if there someone else in Israel that they can do business with then his invite list will be very small.