To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

[MistyMooPup]

Not all of Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will obliterate Hamas. But undoubtedly hundred if not thousands of civilians will now be killed.

I’m not sure what Hamas thought the end game if this would be? What have the Iranians convinced them of? This was a sophisticated operation, outside help was given for definite.

I’m not sure it’s possible to rationalise with dehumanised terrorists, neither am I sure what the end game will be, but I just can’t understand what Hamas expected if not a total war/strikes from Israel in retaliation.

Are you under some allusion that I am military trained DownNative? I'm sorry if my posts are so good I have given you that impression. Unfortunately I am not. The good news is that the IDF are very well funded they received 3.8billion last year alone in aid from the US, I believe the UK is quite fond of throwing their money Israels way too. Between thier funders and themselves I'm pretty sure someone much smarter than me or you can come up with a solution better than 'smash it all down, fuck everyone that gets in the way'. It seems rather pathetic for countries that think as highly of themselves as Israel, the US and the UK doesn't it? Especially given the fact that the area they want to 'smash' has no army, no navy, no airforce, nothing really, except over a million kids.

But sure keep telling yourself that because untrained people on mumsnet can't tell you exactly how all of these highly trained people with billions and billions of funding, unlimited arms and technology, all of their intelligence cannot come up with a better solution than bomb the shit out of Gaza and fuck the lives of everyone that lives there. But yeah, you've really caught me out there what a win for old DownNative 🙄

No experience here but I am wondering how they would do it in reality

Maybe someone will have an idea and post it

Well, I mean it's not surprising that you can't come up with any other alternatives.

It's extraordinarily difficult to think of any viable alternative, especially because Hamas controls Gaza Strip.

Even with all their resources, military powers can find themselves reduced to being between a rock and a hard place as NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence report makes clear regarding Hamas' Use Of Human Shields In Gaza 2008-2014 below:

"The strategic logic of human shields has two components. It is based on an awareness of Israel’s desire to minimise collateral damage, and of Western public opinion’s sensitivity towards civilian casualties.

If the IDF uses lethal force and causes an increase in civilian casualties, Hamas can utilise that as a lawfare tool: it can accuse Israel of committing war crimes, which could result in the imposition of a wide array of sanctions.

Alternatively, if the IDF limits its use of military force in Gaza to avoid collateral damage, Hamas will be less susceptible to Israeli attacks, and thereby able to protect its assets while continuing to fight.

Moreover, despite the Israeli public’s high level of support for the Israeli political and military leadership during operations, civilian casualties are one of the friction points between Israeli left-wing and right-wing supporters, with the former questioning the outcomes of the operation."

This more than highlights the difficulties faced by Israel against Hamas.

It is people who don't really undesirable national security that tend to believe there simply MUST be an alternative course of action. Usually because they cannot believe there isn't one.

Being a military power is ZERO guarantee of having more options when facing a large, well organised terrorist group that has also somehow got inside intelligence on the security measures Israel had in place before 7th October 2023.

The usual idea seems to be peace talks, but....

Well peace talks are the only sensible option

Yes both sides have a long history of rejecting proposals or counter proposals

But on the other hand escalating violence seems to be more likely when there are no attempts at peace talks although I haven't actually done that as proper analysis or even done a google for the correlations

Even with peace talks the issue of Hamas needs to be resolved, ie threat removed

A terrorist organisation with such intent won’t just go away

Who are the talks between? Is it Hamas people are trying to talk with or other

That screen shot says Palestinians, who represents that side, is it the terrorists

It's like asking what Hitler was thinking when he invaded Russia. You can't argue with ideology and fascism. Hamas WANTS a ground invasion. They WANT death and destruction. The deaths of Israeli citizens is a given. But deaths of Palestinian citizens is a win-win for them too . As all fascists, human life, even those of your own, is totally expendable for the global good. I suspect they have prepared very well for a ground invasion, potentially with Iranian and Russian supplied weapons that Israel isn't even aware of (given the massive intelligence failings - clearly Hamas is better at keeping secrets than previously thought).

We were all lulled into a false sense that Hamas was changing and actually had an interest in governing, trust was being built, the number of work permits to Israel had increased greatly, there was an increase in exports through Israel and imported goods, more and more Gazans were being allowed to leave through Egypt. Anyone genuinely concerned with the well being of Gazans would have increased these efforts to improve the situation.

With all the tragedy and sadness, Israel HAS to respond harshly. Hezbollah is sitting on the northern border and trying to heat things up with attacks and rockets - and this is a deterrent for them too. Sadly, this is the Middle East and we've seen what Hamas will do to Israelis if given half a chance (not saying Israel isn't also responsible for the situation but that's for another thread - this is where we are now). Look at the carnage in Syria and Iraq, look at what Egyptians do to each other, look at what Lebanese do to one another - this is not a border skirmish between Denmark and Sweden. If Israel lets its guard down, this is what the future looks like.

For talks to be successful yes they will need to involve Hamas

Yes people might still be killed during the talks

Helpfully rather fewer than when there are no talks

But reality must be faced
No level of Israeli action can eliminate Hamas
The collateral damage this current conflict causes is likely to enable Hamas to grow

What exactly is the expected outcome of the current situation? You won't kill all Hamas - many are not in Palestine

That you create a 200mile no go zone in Gaza so that missiles and attacks are harder to launch from there ? And then you need to do the same on other borders. And then the Hamas tactics change .... ?

( and the Palestinians might ask why you didn't create the no go zone out of Israel's territory not someone else's )

If Israel controls them at every turn, then how is it possible that Hamas managed to import so many weapons and rockets and plan and execute such a sophisticated and large scale plan? Indeed, even now, they are still firing rockets at Israel, even reaching Tel Aviv and beyond. We saw waht the building materials had been actually used for and it wasn't building hospitals and schools.
Now imagine if all these resources put into stockpiling weapons etc had been used to build desalination plants (which is what supplies 85% of water in israel - to the point that Israel gives water to Jordan), electricity plants. Or the resources put into building tunnels to serve Hamas' needs had been put into building bomb shelters for the civilian population. Hamas rules Gaza, not Israel. And (btw) there's a border with Egypt.

If someone slaughtered my loved ones I would want revenge first, a time to deal with my grief and then maybe be ready for peace talks. No way would I listen to anyone elses sad stories, no matter how sad they maybe.
It is amazing and humbling to see so many people who are at a higher level of consciousness. Please do understand that some of us are not as evolved as you.

No one is going to have peace talks with Hamas. That ship has sailed. I was an idiot who used to think it was possible, that Hamas woudl change like the PLO and IRA did. I was a naive idiot.
Just like there weren't peace talks with the Nazis. Some ideologies are too fanatical and muderous to talk with.
Hamas will be destroyed. Israel cannot co-exist with Hamas, that is clear. It's us or them. Hamas is also the greatest enemy of the Palestinian people - they are responsible for so much suffering. Instead of focusing on actually administering Gaza, they focused on murder.

Ironically, many of those cruelly murdered and kidnapped by Hamas were people who called for peace and co-existence as well as many many Palestinian citizens of Israel. And their loved ones are trying to respect their mission in life by calling for restraint and humanity, not revenge,
I agree, these are indeed beautiful and inspirational people who demonstrate the best in all of us and it is the ultimate tragedy that they died so cruelly at the hands of Islamist fanatics who only see hate.

I can’t see it. They are so extreme as you say

Their very reason for existing is committed and fanatical

The Israeli got are already in talks. These things happen in parallel.

The diplomatic talks are ongoing, through third party mediators
and via the visits taking place from representatives of govt from the international community. There is a lot of communication going on and a lot of specialists involved.

The Israeli govt and Hamas are separately engaged in talks with members of the international community. Turkey representatives was reportedly speaking with Hamas (BBC).

And that is exactly why more evolved people should step in and say stop not cheer them on. If governments are not evolved enough to restrain themselves from killing 1000s of innocent people, injuring 1000s more and displacing more than 1 million people in a week then other governments need to not fund them to the tune of billions. People can't go around committing crimes against humanity and shrug and say soz I'm clearly not as evolved as you 🫠. It isn't good enough. Governments of countries that regard themselves as modern, high functioning democracies need to be held to higher standards than that by their own people and by other governments.

Peace talks with previous Palestinian leaders failed because they rejected all of them. In the end, that means you run out of road and the only path ahead is conflict.

Hamas is not a group who can be relied upon to engage in good faith talks and that's hardly possible given their celebratory behaviour following their murder spree on 7th October 2023.

The Israeli Defence Force does NOT need to kill all of the Hamas membership. They just need to kill most of them to weaken them fatally.

@Meshigenus mentioned PLO and PIRA. But PIRA were defeated which is why they accepted the terms of the Belfast Agreement in 1998 despite rejecting the same foundational principles of it in 1973 and 1985. It wasn't necessary to kill all of their members either - most of them were imprisoned and some of them were killed. Arrest rate was far, far higher than the kill rate.

But Hamas is a far more dangerous and difficult enemy than PIRA. Yet Hamas must have their terrorist infrastructure destroyed and enough of their members killed before any terms of peace can be agreed.

Hamas won't agree to any peace deal that ensures Israel continues to exist and that requires Hamas formally recognise Israel as a State.

200 mile no go zone?! I don't think you know the actual size of Israel and Gaza Strip saying that!

North Gaza is about 47 miles away from Tel Aviv and about 62 miles from Jerusalem!

Israel is 290 miles long and 85 miles wide at the widest point. Its actually a relatively small State!

Gaza Strip is 25 miles long and 7 miles wide.

How can a 200 mile no go zone be created to stop missiles being launched from Gaza?

Talks are going on. The international community is engaged.

Talk to deescalte happen before peace talks

Forgot to attach these!

@DownNative
I agree. I thought Hamas would change once responsible for actually governing 2 million people. You know, the boring stuff like water, sanitation, waste disposal, electricity, schools, hospitals. Turns out that they are all just tools in the greater goal of destroying Israel and they had zero interest in actually improving the lot of the Palestinian people.

There are limited options

Talk to Hamas and all others involved
Or
Try to kill everyone in Hamas

One is very hard
The other is guaranteed to fail. You kill every Muslim on the planet and Hamas will find even more soldiers from every other religion.

The talking ship hasn't sailed - talking is always an option whilst people have mouths

You talk until they no longer want to kill you , until they lose support because no one else wants killings to continue and sees no need, until you find a way to live close to each other without killing

It won't be a one off talking experience- once the basics are in place there will be a need to keep talking, spotting new problems , like whoever replaces Hamas because they still feel aggrieved. Because you can never please everyone all of the time - you need to keep enough people aligned that the minority aggressors remain a easily managed minority

It's the only way

Hamas couldn't build a port to import the necessary materials to improve lives because someone bombed it

Exactly, @Meshigenus. Ali Barakeh on Monday just gone was essentially boasting on TV that they fooled everyone into thinking they were too busy governing Gaza.

Secretly since 2005, Hamas has been improving their weapons capabilities and increasing membership.

No one can do business with a group like that. Not even the world's most intentioned people with good, kind souls!

But PIRA were defeated which is why they accepted the terms of the Belfast Agreement in 1998 despite rejecting the same foundational principles of it in 1973 and 1985. It wasn't necessary to kill all of their members either - most of them were imprisoned and some of them were killed. Arrest rate was far, far higher than the kill rate.

What?

Which bit are you struggling with?

I've laid out a fair amount of the supporting evidence in previous threads for this.