Does the rise of the child free mean that attitudes have changed towards parents and children?

[Itchthescratch]

I have been on a few threads on MN recently where animosity amongst child free people towards parents seems to be ramping up. The underlying premise seems to be that parents shouldn't receive many or in some cases any concessions from society for having children because it was their choice. Children are no longer seen as a necessary part of society that will need to be subsidised to some extent by the state and everyone else, like the elderly or disabled, but are instead seen as the fulfilment of a parent's selfish desire in the the same way that someone might choose to have a pet.

AIBU or has anyone else noticed this?

I kind of agree.
Women and it’s always WOMEN, we’re told to stop having children unless you can afford them. Seriously can many people afford children?

Lots of misoginistic comments telling women to somehow look after their children yet go to work. Take time off for their children, yet be seen as reliable at work.
Men never get the same criticism.

However, in the real world I have never come across a childfree woman criticise a mother for making that choice.
Likewise I never ask anyone if they have children, it’s really non of my business.

Yes, I think a lot of it is rooted in misogyny, just it's changed form. Before it was assumed that women couldn't do what men could because they had children. Having children was the primary purpose of women.

Then I think it shifted to having it all. Women were expected to do both.

Now I think it's shifted again and women are almost blamed for having children and needing concessions because of this. If you chose to have the child then you should carry all the consequences yourself.

I think the children are sometimes considered now as consequences of the parents' choices. So if the state pays for a state education for a child then this is a benefit that the parents are receiving that child free people don't get. It's not seen as a necessity for the child that will need that education to be a productive member of society that the child free will rely on in the future.

85% of women have children in the UK, so those who choose not to/can’t are still in considerable minority.

I think that changes in science and technology relating to reproduction, and their access and availability have brought about societal changes, yes.
I think that is is a somewhat inevitable consequence.
I also feel that where attention to the planet as a whole has increased, and here I mean looking at and studying the impact of certain factors such as pollution and population levels as a whole rather than in a single small area, then people have begun to worry more, and therefore be increasingly judgemental or sanctimonious about having or not having children.

So overall, the world is changing, and more importantly we are increasingly able to witness this change in real time and it is causing us to reflect on many issues.

I don’t know whether humans can mentally adapt to the amount of information we are able/ that we are being encouraged to access on a daily basis, at such speed.

I personally find it difficult to know where I stand on many issues because when I think in terms of the individual, the small community I feel one way, help and acceptance of all and willingness to put myself out for this. If I think of the same issue however on a planetary scale, and imagine the impact this would have should everyone on the planet make similar choices or have similar needs I envisage destruction, so my views might chamge.

That is correct, but important to add context that 84% of women aged 45 or over have one or more children. The shift I think in affordability / feasibility of children is more recent. There are a significant number of women between 18-45 who are also child free, which might change - but also I would say will not change for a significant minority.

Having children used to be almost mandatory for women, women needed a man to support them, men got sex by right of marriage, there was little to no contraception and abortion was illegal. Now none of these things are true, children are a lifestyle choice, so people (ie, women) have to carefully consider whether they should have children and deal with the consequences if they choose to do so.

Exactly, this is a relatively recent change I think so the data is currently skewed by the fact that older women tended to have children and a lot of the younger women that have decided not to have children are still in an age group where having a child would be possible. Over the coming decades it will become clearer that more people are choosing to remain child free.

Yes, but that in itself is a shift in attitude.

If children were considered mandatory then they were an unavoidable part of society that needed support like the old or disabled. When you describe them a choice then suddenly people ask why they should be funding other people's decisions. Society though does need children and they are essential. So while children at an individual level are a choice, at a societal level they are a necessity.

I think it's part of a wider societal shift for which everyone is to blame, whereby children are increasingly viewed as a separate species from adults, with their own separate everything - activities, media, holidays, protective bubbles. When I was growing up I was much more integrated into my parents' lives than children are now. I went to the pub with them, I spent my weekends bored to tears at their friends' houses while they chatted, watched much of the same TV (soaps, sitcoms). Of course there were some things that were kid-only, but the general approach was that I was expected to fit into my parents' lives not the other way around. Consequently my parents' childfree friends generally accepted having me around and we were just part of life.

In my opinion the pendulum has swung too far the other way now. Almost everything I do with my child is specifically designed for children (soft play, playgrounds, weekend activities, TV and internet). It's not really the done thing any more to cart your children along to any event or meet up aimed at adults and expect the child to be quiet and entertain themselves while you catch up.

I'm not saying I'm exactly nostalgic for that time but this change in parenting has led to a n ever increasing division between those with children and those who are child free, and parents are as responsible for that as non parents.

If substantial number of women decided not to have children then I think it is likely that society will come to value children even more.

If the birth rate falls markedly then society will provide more concessions and more subsidies in order to encourage women to have them.

Societies need children.

I was going to make this point. There are many, many women in their 20s and 30s who haven't had children and have no desire to have children. Many of these will go on to have children.
I was one and looking back my attitude was pretty anti children to the extent that friends and colleagues were amazed when I changed my mind at 37. All of my friends who were child free at 35 now have children.

Yes, look at how much we have taken away from children eg cuts to education, sure start etc

Can you link to some examples?

Except no country has increased the birth rate once it’s below replacement rate even with heavy incentives, society shifts.

Look at South Korea you may have to travel long distances to a midwife appointment or birth centre because there are so few of them. No kid zones as people are less tolerant of dc.

Women and it’s always WOMEN, we’re told to stop having children unless you can afford them. Seriously can many people afford children

An awful lot seem to forget child benefit and its predecessor used to be universal and in the 80s council homes peaked at 5m so we did use to support families more.

Im child free by choice, I dont care if others want kids as its not me looking after them.

I've certainly seen some long-overdue push back in the workplace around parents being automatically prioritised for leave and for flexible working. But generally, society is pretty much geared to couples and families with young children.

Do you not understand why parents might need the flexible working more than child free people? Not always, but generally.

I'm child free and in every friend group for all my 54 trips around the sun, I have been in the minority. But as soon as I go online, then I'm a pioneer and there are going to be so many more of us CF (not to be confused with cheeky fckers) going forward.

Overall, I'm extremely supportive of my friends and their choices and try to keep my feelings of doom for the future to the absolute minimum.
But I won't tolerate the head tilted who will look after you when you are older and the aren't you bored/lonely/unfulfilled .
I won't pity you and your decisions if you respect the same, plus you and all your children and grandchildren are expensive to buy for at Christmas/birthdays .

Anyone who doesn’t think it’s essential for the existing population of a given country to have children, voiced through opposing any concessions given to parents / children, had better be Ok with high immigration. Now I am fine with immigration myself, but amazing how many say “having children is your choice” and “stop the boats!” in the same breath.

I’m not saying force or incentivise the existing population as of now to have children, but treating children and their parents as a benefit for society and not some sort of burden, or equivalent to getting a dog, would be nice. Child friendly public spaces are a positive thing in my view!

I do think there’s misogyny involved in this “children are your choice” rhetoric though. It’s a “sit down and shut up” line of argument. I think alot of people do want women to have children but actively want them to suffer in the process. There’s a definite segment of society who like the idea of that.

I am childfree and to be brutally honest, it can be annoying when you hear of parents getting this or that concession from the state, when you have worked full time for over 30 years, seen vast amounts of your salary disappear in tax, and never received anything back from it. The state services you try to use (NHS) are broken, it can feel very one-sided, as if you are supporting other people's more expensive choices.

That's probably more a reflection on the government than on parents, but that's how it sometimes feels to me. I'm being honest about my feelings rather than giving a 'kind' answer and fully anticipate parents will disagree with me, which is their right.

I would add that I wouldn't jump onto a thread where a parent was struggling with money and start lecturing them about their choices. I mention it here because it's a topic under discussion.

One of my siblings is childfree and it’s a completely understandable choice to me.

The difficulty is our NHS & pension models are pyramid schemes which don’t work with shifting demographics. Plus if you have more older people you will find reduced voting for long term policies because people won’t live to see the benefits.

The ageing population & the lack of planning for it is impacting our economics & politics now.

That's exactly the sort of blinkered view people object to. There are lots of reasons people might want or need flexible working patterns, conversely having children doesn't necessarily mean you need them at all. Cases should be judged on merit and reviewed regularly.

Did you read my last sentence?

I wonder if a period of time with limited social interaction (in 2020 and 2021) and the seemingly increasing number of parents who don't parent (acting to instil acceptable standards of behaviour) has contributed.