Does the rise of the child free mean that attitudes have changed towards parents and children?

[Itchthescratch]

I have been on a few threads on MN recently where animosity amongst child free people towards parents seems to be ramping up. The underlying premise seems to be that parents shouldn't receive many or in some cases any concessions from society for having children because it was their choice. Children are no longer seen as a necessary part of society that will need to be subsidised to some extent by the state and everyone else, like the elderly or disabled, but are instead seen as the fulfilment of a parent's selfish desire in the the same way that someone might choose to have a pet.

AIBU or has anyone else noticed this?

Yes, I disagreed with it. HTH

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing yep to many of the electorate want lower taxes, lower immigration, better services & people who can support themselves & their dc.

@AvengingAngle what concessions do you mean though? Surely you had an education etc

If you can't see how having children could increase your need for flexible working then this isn't a sensible discussion. Any dependent could have that impact. Parents often have children and disabled and elderly relatives too.

I think that part of the problem is that people who are vocal about spaces, support and money for children are often those deep in the trenches of parenting - they are very invested at that moment. I'm sure I was the same when mine was young, but now she's not, I have no interest in spending my spare time with children, sitting next to them in bars or restaurants or interacting with them on holiday. I'm a teacher - I do my bit for raising the next generation, but this current set of parents of young children seem to think their children are more special and precious than any group of children ever.
Pretty much every parent feels the shame, but as Instagram didn't exist, we couldn't prove it.

I strongly dislike anything that pits groups against each other. I’ve noticed increased hostility from childless women towards mothers and I dislike it. This is Mumsnet after all - it’s not appropriate to join a forum for mothers and then be unpleasant to them. Everyone is doing the best they can in life and doesn’t need snarky remarks.

Men don’t seem to care much.

@LlynTegid increasing numbers of parents who don’t parent? What is this based on & what does that look like? Certainly there are far more expectations safeguarding & health & safety wise on me than my parents or gps.

Most people don't really care about their friends life choices regarding wanting children. I don't care about that a couple of my friends don't want kids. I don't care that most of my friends do.

I think the loud child free are the same as the silently struggling parents, due to society pressures. Because, as someone said, something like 85% of people have kids, there's this stigma of having to prove you've made a good choice by going against the grain, or keeping quiet if you've gone with it, and don't like it.

Truthfully, most people are too focused on their own lives.

The majority of my friends in the 45-60 bracket are child free by choice. I think that's quite unusual for that age group.

I know younger women who would love to have children but who feel it is a) unaffordable and b) a poor choice given the climate emergency. They see choosing to have children as a privileged position taken by women who are financially more secure (the young women I know are teachers and education adjacent, so hardly unstable financially, just not very well remunerated).

I do have children and experience the opposite!

my sister doesn’t have children, by choice. This seems to mean she can say things like ‘ well you chose to have them!’ if I say I’m tired or stressed out about my teens.

But if she says anything eg about being worried to be on her own when she’s older, it would be very cruel of me to say ‘well you choose not to have them!’ - so I don’t. But it does feel like she can criticise my choice, but I can’t do the same back. Maybe I should 🤷‍♀️

Children & young people are the future workers of tmw & if want to increase growth & productivity we need to invest in them. Or we just continue on this doom loop

This is the way Americans think. I remember having a conversation 30 years ago with an American friend who didn’t see why she should pay tax that covers education/schooling since she had no children.

It’s the difference between an altruistic society and an individualistic one and I much prefer the former.

Firstly, I have 4 children. My need for flexible working fluctuated over the years but was actually highest when my youngest was 14 and developed a serious illness and again now (all children are adults) because we have 3 elderly parents/inlaws to support.

(It's not just parents who have caring responsibilities btw)

Sick leave for you and your children is an absolute must and can't be helped, especially if you are doing it solo or might as well be, but that's a different conversation, because that's unexpected.
But if this is about holidays , specifically Christmas then I'm afraid it happens every year so therefore, not unexpected.

I believe this is to do with the "me" generation rather than misogyny specific.

With the rise of internet influencers, people are far more emboldened to say their views and can now see they arent the only one.

Its all about me, my, mine, I. Many folk cant see that these children will be carers, doctors, fire fighters, police etc of the future. They will be a net good for society long term. I was the same in my 20s.

I try to hold compassion for those who judge others. They delude themselves as do all of us at times.

You seem to think the whole world owes you various accommodations merely because you’ve birthed a couple of kids. I love kids, have kids of my own but also don’t think parents should get priority over childfree people when it comes to work accommodations (flexibility or annual leave) and I certainly don’t think the taxpayer should be funding endless kids for parents who can’t afford them on their own. The rise of the childfree has no impact on this; many parents share these views.

As a fellow teacher, I agree with all of this.

Just because a person doesn’t have children does not mean they don’t have family.
There are caring responsibilities that don’t involve children - elderly parents, family members, etc.
Today’s parents might have problems seeing their adult children if said children are childfree as they’ll be way down the pecking order when it comes to annual leave!

I think people just like complaining and ‘child free’ has become an online community in which people annoyed by children and parents can find each other - which just creates the opportunities for these kinds of conversations, where historically you might not have seen them.

The most critical and judgemental group I encounter are actually older women - I suspect because they’ve done it they think they’re the experts, but have
forgotten what it’s actually like, a big dose of rose-tinted spectacles - and suspicion of anything deemed ‘modern parenting’ that they didn’t do.

I am happy to pay my fair share of tax to support people with children. I have friends with children and without, and none of the stuff people talk about on the internet has ever translated into my real life friendships. I love that we all have more choice now and I've benefited from that as a childfree person, and my friends with children have as well.

Flexible working can benefit everyone now, that's great and we all have the right to make a request (not necessarily approved but can request). Some families do shared parental leave now, great for them. People feel less pressure to have a child they don't want, great for them and prevents a child being neglected or abused.

I chose to live in an area that's not particularly child friendly because it fits my lifestyle. People have kids here but yeah the wine bars don't allow kids at any time of day. I don't think that's particularly unfair. Maybe some parents think it is, but they chose to move here 🤷🏻‍♀️

If you hadn't had children then you wouldn't have needed flexible working due to your child's illness. The more dependents you care for, the higher the risk you need flexible working. Same if one is disabled. Not always. But often.

Yes and it’s strange! I love kids and they’re the most important work personally. I’ve noticed the women who don’t want children love luxuries or have a hard time with the idea giving another human time attention and meeting needs that are not their own. even if that includes waking up at 11am or whatever, that’s my worst idea of a day to myself I like being productive and busy so having kids suits me. I also don’t think possessions can ever fulfill me in a way that children do.

I think overall it's about the individual - your sister sounds like she lacks empathy/ self awareness and would probably be the same person if it were her who had children and you not.

For example my brother who has 3 , doesn't understand why I'm tired and says things like try being a parent then you know what tired is to which I reply I already know how tiring it is which is one of the reasons I'm not one .
Your sister is my brother .

Quite.

My partner's workplace introduced a policy last year where only people with school age children could book annual leave during school holidays. It wasn't really to do with childcare (because its a near 100% male workforce and they weren't thinking about that) but to facilitate family holidays.

They found it really hard to understand when he said I could also only go on holiday during school holidays too because it was a family friendly but ultimately poorly thought through policy!

Childfree people/parents of adult children might need to take annual leave through school holidays for any number of reasons.

With the rise of AI the workers of the future will be AI bots and replicants.