Does the rise of the child free mean that attitudes have changed towards parents and children?

[Itchthescratch]

I have been on a few threads on MN recently where animosity amongst child free people towards parents seems to be ramping up. The underlying premise seems to be that parents shouldn't receive many or in some cases any concessions from society for having children because it was their choice. Children are no longer seen as a necessary part of society that will need to be subsidised to some extent by the state and everyone else, like the elderly or disabled, but are instead seen as the fulfilment of a parent's selfish desire in the the same way that someone might choose to have a pet.

AIBU or has anyone else noticed this?

One of the reasons im child free by choice is BECAUSE of the expectation that women should go out to work and have kids as well. Im 53 now and decided by the age of 21 "fuck that im not running myself ragged" And you get to leave work. Back in the 1990s i could see what was coming down the line and that men wouldnt step up while women were/are being expected to do more and more. I think younger women today are unwilling to procreate with crap lazy men who are very eager to go halves while paying on a date but not so eager when its 50/50 with childcare and housework

You aren't wrong. The internet is often where nuance comes to die so black and white thinking tends to rule the day on here and Instagram etc.
I saw a post about Christmas leave the other day and someone said parents shouldn't have any preferential treatment because children are a choice and, the poster went on to say, she is child free by choice but looks after her elderly parents so has greater need for time off.
All respect for people who look after their parents, but providing elder care is also a choice. It's all choice.
Either we acknowledge that care responsibilities are vital for society and support them, or we don't. Arguing about "choice" feels daft to me.

if all the relatives caring for elderly parents excersised their choice not to do it what do you think would happen to the NHS

Well same with parents just not looking after their children, I guess?
Or if everyone just stopped having children, who is going to perform elder care down the line?

I've no issue with elder care needing support, my husband is a little older than me and we supported his dear parents before they passed. But it was our choice. No one was forcing us to do it, just as no one forced me to have a child. I chose to do it.

I think it's a thread designed to continue what was said on the Christmas leave thread.

I’m a parent and I don’t see that.

I think child free women still get a hard time. I think not being a parent should not be seen as less than.

Ahh now this all makes sense - I've not seen this years batch yet, but they occur around this time of year once the rotas have gone out and someone has experienced disappointment 😞.

I am childfree and to be brutally honest, it can be annoying when you hear of parents getting this or that concession from the state, when you have worked full time for over 30 years, seen vast amounts of your salary disappear in tax, and never received anything back from it.

Until they are able to find a job, pay taxes and are able to make a contribution to the community children are more or less parasites. They suck up resources, generate waste and spread diseases. Council tax is an absolute rip off for child free people with 22% of mine going to children's services. So i would like to see the recipients of all these financial subs and handouts show a little more gratitude and humility to those who are paying high taxes for facilities they do not want and cannot use.

I think there is more of an issue now of parents not parenting, which probably explains the increase in negative views of children and people with children. Children seem much less well behaved now and impact more on the lives of others, for example watching iPads in public with no headphones or being left to scream.

The Christmas leave thread also highlights that a lot of parents can be quite entitled.

Until they are able to find a job, pay taxes and are able to make a contribution to the community children are more or less parasites.

This is disgusting.

I had child free friend who thought it was acceptable to, on more than one occasion, refer to my baby, when I was pregnant, and when he was born, a parasite. We are clearly no longer friends.

You are the first person since I’ve heard use that word to describe a child.

I don’t know when people started speaking about children as if they were sub human, but it is disturbing to hear someone use such language to describe other human beings.

What about people with severe disabilities that means they will never be able to find a job, pay taxes and make a contribution to the community? Are they parasites too?

So i would like to see the recipients of all these financial subs and handouts show a little more gratitude and humility to those who are paying high taxes for facilities they do not want and cannot use.

And what would showing you, a person who calls them parasites, a little more gratitude and humility look like?

YABU.

You're assuming that it's people without DC who have negative views about other people's children. It's just as much other parents who are judgemental/negative about other people's children.

This!!! 100%

The vast majority of parents want their children to grow up to be contributing and productive members of society. It's the minority who drag their DC up, or just give up responsibility. And there are no tests for becoming a parent. Anyone can reproduce - it's not special. A pity that people reproducing and not being responsible, can't be tested in the way that foster-carers and adoptive parents are.

However, I do notice that a larger minority parents are increasingly entitled about their DC in shared public spaces. On public transport, taking up disabled spaces with huge prams unsuitable for public transport; in cafes and restaurants, noise (I had to give my order then repeat it twice the other day in a cafe because of a young child shouting & banging his toy on the table - a DC old enough to be requested to use an "indoor voice") and unmonitored running about. And so on.

These are not neglectful parents, but they are very self-centred parents. And it's not just those without DC who find this unacceptable.

If MN is "evidence" there are several threads active this weekend where a parent is critical of others' parenting and the behaviour of their DC. And that is not unusual.

I think we do need to be quite explicit in teaching people that whilst it is absolutely your choice not to have children or have them, the next generation are critical and we all have a stake in their wellbeing. If we do not as a society nurture our children, it will harm everyone. If too many adults choose not to have children we will need to have much high immigration to compensate. You can not he a parent, but no one should be child-free.

People supported you through their taxes when you were a child. I imagine you accessed free further education as well.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5582945-aibu-to-be-put-off-by-boyfriends-childrens-behaviour-and-lack-of-manners?page=1www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5582945-aibu-to-be-put-off-by-boyfriends-childrens-behaviour-and-lack-of-manners?page=1

I had to give my order then repeat it twice the other day in a cafe because of a young child shouting & banging his toy on the table - a DC old enough to be requested to use an "indoor voice"

You had to give your order…TWICE?

What an awful experience. I hope you’re okay.

Yes I agree with this - it's seen as a life choice to have children. But society needs children- who will be paying the pension of all the child free people?! The answer will be more immigration of working age people, but people don't like that either! As a society we need to support children- flexible working for carers, decent education etc

Yes, this!!

I shall ask again Do you have kids and will you be encouraging them into care work?

Is this not exactly the view that the OP is starting to notice more and more?
The services such as the NHS are getting worse because there are not enough children, not because there are too many and they are using ‘your share’. If you’ve worked full
time for 30 years, presumably you are old enough that a theoretical child would be contributing by now, making the service better for everyone.
Parents of children could very much flip your argument around and complain that you are using services, but have not contributed to making them sustainable for the future (or indeed the present).

We don't need just care workers. We need people that are capable of driving economic growth. We need a thriving private sector to fuel public receipts so that the state pension can be paid to older people. We need people that will undertake all essential roles from police, to fire, to maintaing our utilities etc. We need a functioning society and this won't happen without children.

I didn't say it was awful! It was very annoying and meant I got take away instead of staying in the cafe. So not great for me.

I implied that the child in question was being allowed by his parents to be quite anti-social. I observed that the parents didn't care. The child was very loud - both voice and banging some toy on the wooden table - loud enough that the barista & I had difficulty hearing each other. And the child was old enough to be able to start to learn about appropriate behaviour in shared public spaces.

But I suspect you're being sarcastic, trying to prove that posters are anti-child. It's not a blanket thing. As I wrote - a minority of parents is inconsiderate - but I do think that proportion has increased.

I sort of agree with some of these points except for one glaring thing about the sex differences in terms of wanting children. I do not believe that men genuinely want to be parents as a whole, the minority, sometimes many, but not the majority. They may want children, they may want to procreate, but not necessarily be 'parents', those are different things. They may want to be able to say they have children, are fathers.

Women tend to be the drivers in terms of wanting kids, having kids, parenting kids.

I would rather pay for children than poor lifestyle choices, whether that be worklessness, addiction, obesity. At least kids are quite cute and will fund our negligible and means tested pensions in the future.

Governments (and i especially remember the Tories doing it) kept moaning about and telling ppl not to have kids if they cant afford them
Ive also seen posters on here say it
You cant whine now the reckoning has to be paid.

And before someone pipes up "well thats not the demographic that people mean and thats not the people we really want to have children well do you really think its the middle class parents who will be encouraging their kids into care work?
Its mixed messages