Does the rise of the child free mean that attitudes have changed towards parents and children?

[Itchthescratch]

I have been on a few threads on MN recently where animosity amongst child free people towards parents seems to be ramping up. The underlying premise seems to be that parents shouldn't receive many or in some cases any concessions from society for having children because it was their choice. Children are no longer seen as a necessary part of society that will need to be subsidised to some extent by the state and everyone else, like the elderly or disabled, but are instead seen as the fulfilment of a parent's selfish desire in the the same way that someone might choose to have a pet.

AIBU or has anyone else noticed this?

Everyone is aware of the possibility your children might not look after you when you are older. I don’t think that is what the post was about, I read it as some people feel entitled to put you back in your place when you have a normal moan about parenting but if you moan about being alone when you are older, indicating that they assume it’s fine if you have kids you won’t be alone, a parent can’t point out that that was their choice.

And whilst a lot of children can’t look after parents as they age, most will advocate for them. Having someone with the marbles to get you the help you need should it be required is a better position than not having that. Obviously if you have kids and you love and cherish them the chances of this happening is increased. But it’s not a reason to have them I agree, just a possible bonus later in life (as there is on average about what 45/50 years between giving birth and care needed) it’s not really on anyone’s mind aged 30.

Most of us would have an infinitely better Christmas with our families or loved ones. That's not something that changes with age.

I think it's part of a wider societal shift for which everyone is to blame, whereby children are increasingly viewed as a separate species from adults, with their own separate everything - activities, media, holidays, protective bubbles.

I agree @BrummieKara and I don't think it's healthy, because it separates children and dehumanizes them in a way. Children are young human beings, that's all, they're not different from older humans! Parents and childfree adults aren't different either, we're all part of the same society and need to be tolerant towards each other.

My parents had to work the whole festive period when I was small because of the job they chose. I then ended up in a job working the whole festive period too
was it shit? A bit. But you get used to it. I got to open my presents with them and then that was it until the evening. I’m 42 now and we’ve had exactly one “proper” Christmas together

Wanting a baby is selfish.
Bringing them up is the most selfless thing we have ever done. By orders of magnitude!

There are plenty of people who have to find emergency childcare though. I remember having to take DD to A&E on Christmas Eve once and one of the triage doctors was a single mum who still had hours of her shift ahead when we were discharged. She had a nanny and said she could barely afford it on a junior doctor’s salary.

People use all sorts of arrangements to hold down their jobs. As I say, it’s miserable but better than raising a child on benefits.

I've listed them elsewhere - I don't mean education and the NHS, I mean the financial concessions - for example, tax credits, free prescriptions (which should be means-tested for everyone including the over 60s) and state-funded pre-school childcare.

And that is a problem, and meanness of her managers or the company.

She’s an adult with a choice, you can move jobs, it might not be easy but you can make that choice.

Many workplaces accommodate their staff regardless of circumstances. If you’ve never met are always covering for parents but never get any accommodation then look for other work.

It’s not indicative of all staff, all workplaces.

We all have things we think we should have or need and can’t get. H had a job where our summer holidays were completely dictated (ruined most years) by his work. It was a nightmare. But whilst he stayed there that was the rules. So he left. That was his only option to change his circumstances.

Some workplaces are worse than others. Sometimes you have to suck it up to keep getting paid.

well, for those types isn’t racism and sexism the answer to all the worlds problems 🤦‍♀️

In the real world, that’s not an affordable or realistic solution for the vast majority of people.

I’ve just had a Google for nanny’s on Christmas Day, and if you were lucky enough to get one, the price would be upwards of around one week’s wage for some people.

That’s not reasonable in the slightest. Some people can barely afford to buy their child Christmas presents and Christmas Day dinner.

I imagine that was her regular childcare since A&E doctors obviously don't work standard nursery hours and not a special Christmas Day only nanny. Or if used in an emergency, yes, it's going to be expensive but worth it in the long term to keep her career.

Of course it's the 'real world' if a single parent has a demanding career like an A&E doctor which is also needed on Christmas Day.

What do you mean by “the real world”? Is being an A&E doctor not “real” enough for you?

Obviously it’s expensive; people aren’t doing it day in, day out. Its emergency childcare, used in emergencies.

You can disapprove/disbelieve as much as you like: its no skin off my nose what you think.

But I promise you some people have to pay for expensive childcare sometimes. What would you suggest they do? Quit on the spot and spend months wrangling with the DUP to get their UC started because they voluntarily left a well paid job?

Ironic that you are talking about “the real world” when you clearly have no experience of being faced with a situation like this.

What do you mean by “the real world”? Is being an A&E doctor not “real” enough for you?

If you had read any of my other posts, you’d see I was talking low income single parents, which a junior doctor is not.

So, yes, back in the real world where most people aren’t on a junior doctor’s salary.

I’m talking about low income single parents. I’ve ONLY been talking about low income single parents. Not single parents who can well afford that kind of childcare.

I'm not so sure a junior doctor would be able to well afford it.

In any case, it is nice if colleagues are prepared to cover the Christmas period but it shouldn't be expected meaning that they never get a Christmas with their own families and as I said, if you have a job that requires working over the Christmas period then as a parent, you need to accept it.

Quite a lot of "issues" really.

Lots of children don't seem to behave and lots of parents don't seem to have set boundaries etc., so there's a lot of noise and poor behaviour in public places, especially where others are trying to have a "quiet" experience such as restaurants, cinemas, etc.

In workplaces, there is increasing animosity towards parents who get preferential treatment in terms of priority of school holiday time off, time off for childcare, school meetings, when kids are sick, etc - meaning other staff without young kids often have to pick up the slack.

I’ve no idea what a junior doctors earns, but I imagine it’s much more than the cleaning and domestic staff.

In any event, I know plenty of parents who have worked Christmas Day, because their children are either at home with their father, at their father’s house or with grandparents.

For a single parent with no family support working a cleaning job in the NHS, without the means to hire a fucking nanny on Christmas Day, it’s the employer/colleagues that just need to accept it.

Maybe a cleaning job that shuts on Christmas Day would be more appropriate if one came up. I wouldn't blame colleagues who would have to always cover her on Christmas Day from resenting it as they will be always missing time with their own families.

Having been child free for most of my productive life (due to infertility which I accepted, no interventions. Happy with my lot) and then unexpectedly having a child as a 'geriatric' parent, I think I have experienced both sides. When child free, the world and it's dog thought it was within their rights to question my child free-status and assert that I could not be complete as a woman due to not giving birth. When I unexpectedly became pregnant, I was late in pregnancy when it was confirmed (I would not change it now), but I was perfectly happy with my life as a child free-adult and it was difficult for lots of reasons.

I adore my DC 20 years later, as did their father who died suddenly when they were aged 8. I have not been a perfect parent, but I have raised an amazing young person who has is now in uni, has worked alongside study since 16 and shows far more empathy and consideration towards others, particularly those with lesser life chances, than many adults in this world. They are thinking of joining the police, which I totally support because (full disclosure- I am a public sector worker and have been a nurse and then a child protection social worker for 20 years). Our society needs public sector workers, but more importantly young people from different backgrounds who break through the misogyny, corruption and stale, white male stronghold.

Attitudes towards child rearing and women have not changed much at all. When I had DC, after mat leave I was the full time worker because DH could work agency shifts as a highly qualified medical practitioner around my hours, and he was treated like a complete novelty. Years later, many of my colleagues work part time 'because the cost of child care' makes no sense to them, despite the impact on their pension and progression, they are all women. Society has not changed at all in this way, however most women with a professional career (not the few outliers in finance/corporate law who can afford a nanny, just the usual teachers/nurses/social workers) are now expected to hold down their jobs whilst remaining the main caregiver/responsible for sorting out child care and household.

I have lots if relatives and friends who remain child free by choice and who are amazing and remain a very important part of our life. I doubt very much that their decision has had any meaningful impact on the way parents are viewed. I suspect society's attitude towards parents is based on a growing sense of entitlement from certain parents, the increasing lack of empathy towards children and young people in general and the continuing breakdown within communities/extended support networks.

Women choosing not to have children is absolutely okay. Attitudes are nit changing because of it

As this thread has ended up talking mainly about Christmas, there is one thing that does seem to have changed over my lifetime, outside of any religious meaning.

When I was small, Christmas was about the wider family. Children were part of the family, of course, but their wants didn’t supersede everything else. Now, it seems to be all about children.