Does the rise of the child free mean that attitudes have changed towards parents and children?

[Itchthescratch]

I have been on a few threads on MN recently where animosity amongst child free people towards parents seems to be ramping up. The underlying premise seems to be that parents shouldn't receive many or in some cases any concessions from society for having children because it was their choice. Children are no longer seen as a necessary part of society that will need to be subsidised to some extent by the state and everyone else, like the elderly or disabled, but are instead seen as the fulfilment of a parent's selfish desire in the the same way that someone might choose to have a pet.

AIBU or has anyone else noticed this?

Excellent post

And some posters are quite sneery towards lazy, materialistic, selfish childfree people.

Ive noticed that some people seem to think its trendy to not want children, not like children etc as if its impressive to be an arsehole. Ive also noticed people seem to think that women let themselves go or that women somehow regret having their children, which I personally find disgusting. I seen a thread on here just the other day where a poster implied women who do not regret having children were lying.

The attitude and narrative these people spin is twisted and seems to be an attempt to deter others from starting a family. I didnt want kids and then I met the right man and it all changed. I wish we had met eachother sooner so that we could have had more children because having them is by far the most amazing part of my life.

In fairness there are plenty of posts on here from people who say they do regret having children.

You may find it shocking but having children can reduce the quality of people’s lives significantly. It’s regrettable and sad but that doesn’t mean this is just child free propaganda.

My starting point is that children are people and that society needs to recognise that and that they have different needs to adults.

It’s not so much for the benefit of parents (thought they do matter to) but for children themselves - they do need to live in society, not sectioned off somewhere.

And their taxes will look after everyone in old age.

This is my perspective too. You shouldn't punish children for existing because you don't agree with the parent's choice for having them. Lots of people as adults are estranged from their parents and fundamentally disagree with them. Obviously children can't do that and are completely dependent on the same adults. It makes them incredibly vulnerable and is why we can't see everything that benefits a child as something that offers an advantage to the parent over child free people.

They cant help how they feel, and im glad they have support in this forum to let it out but when those of us say that we love being a mother, there are people in here calling us liars. Nobody questions those who say they regret having children though.

There is a shift and I dont think its for the better. I also think the role of traditional housewives is frowned upon when many women would love to give up work and be there to raise their kids full time.

I'm seeing the opposite happening with people panicking about the falling birth-rate meaning parents are venerated even more than usual, early motherhood being encouraged again and traditional values such as trad wifing.

I've worked in various supermarkets for 30 years. Over time I've noticed the number of parents who don't parent increasing.

Kids running around, screaming, chasing each other, parents putting them in the body of the trolley because the kids can't be trusted to behave, climbing shelving, opening stock, not being watched and left to wander a completely different section of the supermarket, hitting and shouting at their parents, demanding things (and the parents giving in for an easy life), trying to go into the warehouse etc.

All while the parents either do nothing or give a half hearted "stop that". At least once a week I have to step in to ask a child not to do something potentially dangerous while the parent either gives another "stop that" or glares at me for saying something. This is not just a mother thing, both parents are just as bad.

Of course, there are also lovely children whose parents pay attention etc.

I haven't spent a Christmas Day with DD since 2019. She is 1 of 2 who are childfree at work, the 3 others all have children. When it comes to Christmas she and the other woman can have either the 24th or 26th off but the 25th is for parents only. DD lives too far away to "pop by" after work or to visit on her day off. I don't think she and her DH have ever spent a whole Christmas Day off together in the entire 12 years they've been a couple either. It's shit, but her job is very niche and she loves it otherwise she'd leave. Is it too much to ask that a parent works for the 4 hours needed on Christmas Day?

So how many on this thread (including you) will be encouraging your children into care work?!

There was a poster on the Christmas leave thread who had worked TEN Christmases in a row and when she finally got the 11th off instead of saying Thank you for the previous ten years you have done the parents kicked off

That’s great, for you, but we aren’t all the same and the message you are giving is that those ‘other people’ are selfish and somehow lesser.

Kids are fine, and I suppose necessary, and I have no objection to paying my taxes ( I am by far a net contributor and have been for most of my adult life) but what I do object to is the lax standards of gentle parenting that seem to prevail (there was a thread the other day where loads of posters seemed to think trailing round supermarkets with screaming kids was ok, it really isn’t) and the expectations of those types of parents that everyone should indulge the bad behalf their little darlings. It is not good for the kids and prepares them for a lifetime of feeling let down as other grown ups won’t pander to their expectations and makes for crappy employees. Well raised kids with engaged parents who don’t make life crappy for those around them are fine.

I think with a lot of things when life creates clubs for new parents and farms that only people with children can attend it indirectly causes a divide. It appears nicer and more supportive for parents to meet up with other parents but it indirectly discriminates against people without children.
ive heard mums say they had anothrt child to apply for bigger housing from the council. Not the parents fault, if benefits are offered, people will take them.
benefits like parental leave, 1st choice on school holiday leave, maternity/paternity leave- these benefit parents but indirectly impact on working lives of those without children snd those going through fertility who cant get leave.
thats what i think anyway.

Such a good point and I also think imagine if we did - seems a lot more looked down on to bring kids along out with you. I saw someone pointing out recently that it's very typical in Spain/Italy for kids to be passed out asleep head down at a dinner table in a restaurant while parents are having another drink before going home. Can you imagine seeing that in the UK ...? Or how my grandma used to manage Terry cloth nappies with no washing machine but just parking the baby outside in a pram most of the day. If I did either of those things with mine I'd expect someone to call Childline on me.

But yeah absolutely some of the recent threads there is so much vitriol from some posters towards parents. I don't get any special treatment at work for having kids, I work non stop all day through lunch etc to leave to pick up my son and if I have to work more than that, it's at home when he's asleep. Such a weird picture some people have of huge benefits and concessions for parents. And I never saw things like that before I had kids, I also happily would have done an event or something instead of a colleague who had young kids if it came up, just seemed like the right thing to do.

We’ve had plenty of people come into the Mumsnetters Without Children Board to question people on their choice not to have children and to say we will regret it when we’re old.

Terrible 😔 I wonder if it's linked to more parents having to work and both work full time? Is everyone just exhausted and doing more giving in for an easy life?

Edit: I say everyone, hell would freeze over before I let DS do anything like this and I'm pregnant with very low iron and shattered atm. Just wondering is all

Spot on. I’d say this thread was a false enquiry, made in bad faith, and clearly out to foment a damn good venting against childfree women.
Obviously individual cases from both groups will bear out a prejudice apparently satisfactorily, but it’s no way to build a thesis.

As for this purported ‘rise’ she mentions, if that is to be read as ‘a rise in influence/ prominence’, I’d suggest she broadens the reach of her study group, because I don’t think there is any such thing, large enough to be measured!

ive been told on two seperate threads on here that i shouldnt be in social housing (even the one bedroom flat that i am in) because i dont have kids

As other posters have said, the number of child free by choice people has grown relatively recently so they have more of a voice perhaps.

I can remember working in the civil service (before I had children) and feeling incensed at the number of concessions granted to those who had children. For example there was a car park in the building but spaces were limited so there was a waiting list. I twice got to the top of the list only to be told the next vacant space has been allocated to a newer colleague "because she has to do the school run and it will make her day easier" . Then the bloke who asked to randomly "work from home" if his wife was struggling with the toddler. This was in the days before laptops and VPNs. So he actually did no work but our team leader felt sorry for him and didn't want him to use up all his annual leave because "family comes first". The rest of us picked up extra work!

I do now have children but as a manager I will try and ensure that childfree employees are fairly treated and don't get the shitty end of the stick. If I didn't I would expect them to raise it and fair enough.

Totally agree with you. Also I have seen plenty of threads where someone is given a kicking about their parenting choices only to have responder say “I’m a parent too by the way and I never would never do that..” This thread was totally designed to stoke antipathy towards childfree posters and there are so many non-sequiturs being mentioned that I can barely count them. Plenty of parents question and criticise the choices of other parents - in fact if most people are parents then surely it follows then most of those criticising other parents WILL BE parents themselves! But I’m leaving this thread now as it is honestly revolting and I don’t care to give it any more attention or momentum. Shameful.

I've never seen anyone calling someone a liar for saying they love being a mother....It's a site aimed at parents and it's very much a social taboo still to admit you don't enjoy being a parent. If people feel animated enough about this to post about it they are probably in quite a bad place, so feelings are going to run high but most people realise that it's their cross to bear. I think its a huge exaggeration to say "nobody questions" people saying they regret it. The majority of people express sadness and regret on these threads when someone says they regret having kids, quite often people suggest PND.

Also I take issue with your second paragraph: if a lot of women quietly regret having children (as these threads sometimes show), surely the solution to this isn't to revert to a situation where more women are expected to give up work and raise their kids full time?

Raising children can be wonderful and enormously fulfilling and hopefully most people don't regret it, but it is also hard work, frequently lonely and sometimes mind-numbingly boring. The solution to women feeling bored, underappreciated and alienated isn't to go back to an environment where raising children is seen as their only valid role.

In agree with this wholeheartedly.
I think one of the reasons for the shift in women having fewer or no children is that it just seems like such hard work nowadays compared to in the past, when as you say, children fitted in with their parents' lives, not the other way round.
Just yesterday, I saw two posts on MN along these lines. One was a stepparent complaining that she had no time with her husband as he prioritised his child. She kept repeating 'Of course, that's the way it should be' as if the prospect of the child not being 100% at the front of every minute of every day was ridiculous. The replies agreed that it was indeed as it should be and berated her for being selfish enough to want anything else occasionally.
The other was a poster who was worried about their family's diet and was accused of 'virtual child abuse' for feeding her pre-school child white toast and cocopops.
Of course children should not be ignored and of course they should be fed healthy food, but it just seems so full-on and exhausting nowadays - micromanaging every move, every minute and every morsal eaten.
And on top of all that, there is the Instagram perfection to contend with, where mothers are led to believe that every second with a child is a blessing, a joy and the Best Thing Ever. Even night feeds are reframed as 'enjoying milky cuddles' as if anyone actively enjoys being up half the night with a fractious baby.
Young mothers are under such pressure to be perfect - no crying, no time without baby (I cringe at the term cutsie terms Velcro baby and 'nap trapped'). They are expected to sacrifice themselves totally to parenthood and forget who they were before. I can't imagine how it affects their mental health tbh - but that won't be known until a few years down the line.

They'll be the exact same people who believe our accommodation is totally free, because we are all so very obliviously on benefits.

No special treatment at work? Would a non parent be able to work through lunch and leave early on a regular basis?