AIBU to think refusing treatment from non-white medical professionals should have consequences?

[MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack]

There has apparently been a significant rise in racism towards NHS staff, with a growing number of people refusing to allow non-white NHS staff to treat them. This is sad but not surprising given the shift in society as a whole towards people expressing their racism much more openly.

https://news.sky.com/story/nhs-staff-experiencing-unconscionable-levels-of-racist-abuse-survey-finds-13569575

I have always admired the commitment of NHS staff who treat all patients with care and compassion, even when those patients are rude and abusive. But if people are actually refusing to let certain staff provide treatment, surely there should be consequences for this?

AIBU to think that everyone has the right to refuse treatment if they so wish, but if a patient refuses treatment from a medical professional simply because they don't like the colour of that medical practitioner's skin, then they should then forfeit the right to receive that treatment on the NHS. So they can either go without or find the money to be treated privately by a medical professional of their choice?

There would need to be signs warning people of the consequences of their choices, of course, but if someone doesn't want a Black or Asian radiographer carry out their x-ray, then fine... they just don't get an x-ray.

I am brown doctor, UK-trained and have been relatively lucky. I have had no direct racism and nobody has refused to see me. I did speak to a patient on the phone for an appointment once. He expressed some strongly racist views, and because I have an English name, he had no idea who he was speaking to. That almost amused me.

I have worked on mental health wards. The black nurses, most of who are absolutely brilliant, with good English, suffer horrendous racism. They just have to put up with it. These patients are detained under the mental health act. But some definitely have capacity in terms of knowing what they’re doing with their racist comments. It is awful.

For nonemergency situations, I don’t think people should be allowed to say that ‘I’m not seeing the brown or black clinician and I insist on seeing somebody white’. I’m also laughing at the idea that there are lots of available appointments with a range of different coloured staff and people can pick and choose. Unfortunately or fortunately there is no such luxury.

In emergencies, we have to treat people, whatever their views. I remember in A&E we were doing CPR to a young white male who had had a drug OD and was covered in swastika tattoos. We had to save him of course.

The way some NHS workers who are POC are treated by some patients is bad of course, saying they don't want that nurse 'because she's black,' and suchlike.. But refusing people NHS treatment because they don't want the black health care worker near them is not the way forward. They have all sworn the Hippocratic oath and can't just say 'off you go!' and not treat them.

I am more than happy to have someone who isn't white when I am in hospital or at a clinic or whatever, but I don't want anyone, I mean ANYone who cannot speak or understand English properly, no matter what their skin colour. If it's my health, and I am in a precarious situation (like having treatment/surgery) then the person I am speaking to has to speak English well, and understand it well too.

Anyone who says that this is unreasonable is being ridiculous. And please don't pretend that every single health care worker can speak English really well, because that's simply not true. Many can of course, but some can't, and I don't think it's unreasonable to want someone who speaks and understands English, when your health is on the line.

It is also 100% fine to request a woman (or a man) if it is going to be an intimate examination.

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No idea but it needs to stop.

The estimated cost to the UK tax payers to train a doctor up to their first day as a qualified junior doctor is approx £163,000 to £175,000.For a nurse, the taxpayer pays around £29,000 to £35,000 in direct grants and placement costs, though the full economic cost of their training spans closer to £67,000 to £85,000.

You appear very passionate about protected characteristics for some, yet not towards certain NHS “staff”.

No I do not.

No they should not under any circumstances be refused treatment- being a racist bigot does not and should not change your right to care, after all they have paid to be part of the system, like everyone else.
However I would tell them that refusing care from someone because of their colour or race will mean they go to the back of the queue to wait for someone that they accept, and that it may be "some time".

Many people of colour are third or fourth generation British. My mind is really boggling at your statement. Certainly you can ask for a second opinion, but you really can’t decide by skin colour.

Surely if you turn up and don't want the black radiographer doing your xray then you have to just go home and go back to the bottom of the waiting list and hope your next appointment is with someone different. Or sit in the waiting room till the end of the day in case the white radiographer happens to have a space.

If you want to make that choice then that's your consequence. More fool you.

Insanity

I’m not white and am an immigrant, but my objections are not skin colour but standard of English. I’ve tried to interact with too many HCPs with English I don’t understand. But it can be difficult to raise this without coming across as rascist. TBH if there are two queues and one ends in an unknown white person and the other in a brown one, I would probably join the white queue for a better chance of understandable English, which is even more important for patients for whom English is not their first language. But if the white HCP is from deepest Glasgow I will be doomed anyway.

I have always admired the commitment of NHS staff who treat all patients with care and compassion, even when those patients are rude and abusive.

I don't know where you live, but this isn't the case at my local hospital at all. Some are downright rude (without cause) and some neglectful!

Obviously, there will always be racist people (and quite frankly, if they're too stupid to accept the medical attention they're offered on account of the practitioners race, they can go to the back of the queue again or not be seen at all IMO), however, does this factor in cases where there is a language barrier or the patient feels that staff of a particular ethnicity have been rude to or dismissive of them? I suspect there's more to it.

We really need to stop making nursing a degree, though. We need to get back to a system where there is basic training and career progression through taking additional coursesand gaining additional qualifications on the job. We are making the job extremely unattractive to anyone in the UK by saddling them with a mortgage deposit sized debt before they've got their first job. It's also unfair to hold British practitioners to a higher standard than those ultimately outsourced. It's a vocation and should be treated as such. This whole making everything a degree mentality is fucking this country up.

But how many Drs and nurses do you think come over for day 1 of their training? Next to none.

Recruitment has albeit stopped in my trust. For everybody. Doctors, nurses etc. Absolutely nobody is getting a permanent contract. International or not.

If our international medics returned home the healthcare system (not just the nhs) would completely and utterly collapse.

So it just ‘stopping’ isn’t possible. At all. It’s happened.

But they wouldn't have been refused care as such? They would have had the option to accept care which they declined.

So we wouldn't be refusing care because they are racist bigots. We would be saying that you can have the treatment that you need but we won't pander to your racist bigotry by allowing you to select the skin colour of your HCP.

There is a difference. But sending them to the bottom of the queue would be better than nothing, I guess.

Most won’t have paid nearly enough and some will have paid nothing. But hey, everyone has a “right” to be racist right?

A balanced post which I totally agree with. Whilst I think there should be zero tolerance of racism, we also need to understand that some illnesses manifest in strange ways (dementia and brain injuries). A friend's mum had a bike accident and the force of her head bang injured her brain. Before the accident she was the warmest, most welcoming, polite person I had ever met. She is married to a Welshman, and lives in Wales. She loves Wales - always tells everyone how wonderful it is and how amazing the Welsh are. yet when she came out of her coma she called the nurses "effing Welsh witches" and refused a Welsh speech therapist as she didn't want to speak like an "Effing Welsh person". All her family were horrified (as was she when she had recovered, and was told about it!) but the nurses were utterly lovely - said it was quite common with brain injuries and took it all in their stride.

That would be perfect.

I ok with that.

It would only take probably less than a handful of times for word to get out and this nonsense would stop stone dead. Actions = consequences.

If someone refuses treatment then they obviously don’t need it.

I don’t think there needs to be any legal repercussions just an “ok bye then”

The NHS is on its knees, the staff are overworked and often face abuse.
No one should be being picky about receiving free medical treatment that might save their life.

This is a great point actually.

The care is there if they want it and are prepared to be respectful to all the clinicians.

If they don’t want it or can’t be respectful, following a mental capacity assessment- surely that’s their choice not to take it.

We're pretending its nationality and absolutely not colour oh no definitely not colour are we?
Give over.

Colour of skin is completely irrelevant but I do want to be able to communicate effectively with any healthcare worker who is directly involved in my care and I’m afraid that is too frequently not the case. I think this may cause frustration and concern which could potentially manifest as objections to international healthcare workers in general for some people.

This

That’s the choice they make surely?

There could be a potential loophole. As in my case, I could have refused the black male radiographer on the grounds of his sex = legitimate reason. There are going to be situations where patients can use that as an excuse and therefore not forefit their right to treatment. Non intimate examinations could be included if the patient says they do not feel comfortable with a man touching them. How far does common sense stretch?