To think that it IS inconsistent to judge men who buy sex but not women who sell it (excluding women who are trafficked/traumatised/acting from financial necessity)?

[Carla786]

The thread today where the OP claimed to have been an escort had quite a few posters saying that they don't judge women who sell sex, only men who buy it.

Now, I think that most women selling sex are trafficked and/or doing so from financial necessity and/or suffering from sexual trauma.

So I don't judge them. But I do judge the minority of women, who DO exist, who sell sex when they have other viable options, are financially OK, often educated etc. Ditto men. They are all contributing willingly to an industry which devalues sex, intimacy and the human body.

It does seem inconsistent to exempt women (and men) who sell sex completely from judgement. Denying that women can willingly prop up harmful industries isn't feminist.

AIBU?

Well if you exclude women who are trafficked, traumatised, or doing it out of financial necessity there will be few enough women left to judge.

True. But they do exist.

To give that thread as an example, the OP said she had been a Domme (which I think often tends to not involve much physical contact). She said she used it to fund travel, a house & a second degree. It didn't sound like she had to do it out of poverty or coercion.
Several pps defended her choice by saying no woman in the sex industry really chooses it and so they can't be blamed for participating in the system, and that the men are bad so they're entitled to take their money.

It's not what you want to hear, but something about it feels unequal but I can't articulate why.
It's like with that Bonnie Blue nonsense, I couldn't help but judge the men who participated in it just a little 🤏more than I judged her - I'm sorry, it's just the way I feel.

Can you explain what you mean about devaluing sex or moreso why sex should be valued so highly? Sex can just be sex.

This.^^

YABU @Carla786.
Really, really Unreasonable.

This.
If men didn’t objectify women as they do, or weren’t sexual dogs, women wouldn’t sell it. Men and women will never been equal in terms of sexual vulnerability.

Yes, please do. Or do you think that other people's reasons for having sex should all be the same as yours, and also that women should not be allowed to (legally) earn a living in any way they choose?

What other jobs should other women be prohibited from doing just because you disapprove of them and would not do them yourself?

Every man who buys sex makes that choice.
Most women and girls "providing" sexual services to men, don't have a choice.

I don't approve of men choosing to sell sex either.

I don't think women or men should be banned from selling it though, I support the Nordic Model.

I know that! Many, maybe most, men who sell sex are trafficked too, or do it out of poverty. I'm not talking about the majority.

I'll link to the thread I meant. If you read the OP's post, she seems to be an example of someone who freely chose it, and doesn't seem bothered by the damage. I have come across other examples. Eg. She says she knew many of the clients were married and doesn't seem very bothered by that.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5492966-to-tell-friend-her-new-partner-was-a-former-client-of-mine?page=2&reply=150628349

So you’re asking is the woman who willingly becomes a sex worker to pay university fees, fund holidays and buy designer clothes (that’s the impression I got from that poster) morally equivalent to the man who pays for sex?

Interesting question, never really thought about it. 🧐

I see what you mean, but otoh Bonnie Blue seems to be doing exactly what she wants. Do you thunk she's doing it out of 'sexual vulnerability '?

I do agree partly re women's vulnerability but otoh that doesn't mean they have no choice ever. Clearly Bonnie Blue does.

Men being dogs doesn't force Bonnie Blue & her ilk to sell sex, does it? This feels almost...infantilising? I know you don't mean it that way & I agree re vulnerability but otoh women like Bonnie Blue have agency, they aren't being forced to sell sex to satisfy gross men. (Of course that is not the majority, as I've said)

I don't think morally equivalent...this might be me being inconsistent but I think buying someone's sexual services (whatever the sexes involved) is worse intrinsically, but it's hard to articulate..

Otoh I think choosing to sell sex to get luxuries is a bad & harmful decision for the reasons I outlined in OP...

Is this thread about the men who willingly choose to buy sex? Or the victims who provide it because they need to make money?

You think both should be judged equally @Carla786? You’re wrong!

It's notable that there's a long and sad history of (some) gay men exploiting men selling sex. There's a much smaller amount of women who have paid for sex from men, or lesbians who've paid for sex from women, though all those things have & do exist to some extent.

Maybe it's not only about men objectifying women due to misogyny (although that is a big part of it), but male sexuality tending to be more objectifying no matter who it's directed at?

Either way it's very sad...

MOST women who sell sex do NOT have a choice.

I am NOT disputing that.

But a minority are different.

That post I quoted : 'I have no regrets - I travelled the world when young, own my house and have funded further studies for my current career. So it has been life changing in many ways'

• that doesn't sound like someone providing it because they have to make money. It sounds like someone at uni making a decision to do that to improve their future life. The majority of people who want to do further studies, travel etc do not sell sex- there IS a choice.

I see what you mean...I certainly instinctively judge someone buying sex more, even though I don't think choosing to sell is good either (though I know most don't have a choice).

Otoh how would you feel if Bonnie Blue were a man? Would you feel different? That they were less vulnerable? I suppose women's physical vulnerability is an angle here too.

I do think Bonnie Blue is ‘doing it out of sexual vulnerability’, yes. I’d be amazed if she had no history of sexual or emotional trauma.

Of course she has a choice, but there’s choice and there’s choice. Adults make all kinds of dysfunctional choices due to the difficulties they have experienced in their life. I don’t believe any secure, emotionally healthy woman sells sex and we shouldn’t as a society enable this form of self harm and dress it up as choice. Just like we shouldn’t dress up making the choice due to being poor.

The vast majority of prostituted women have been raped as children.
I cannot remember the study but I think it was over 95% had been victims of SA.
So no, I blame the men.

@Carla786 You made it clear that you are talking specifically about women who have freely chosen to engage in sex work, and whether Mumsnet likes it or not there are plenty of them. Two of my closest friends are sex workers, I've met hundreds of others and I'm a former sex worker - I was a stripper for years and also did some adult modelling and webcamming when it was just starting to take off.

All of us are independent, capable adults who decided we wanted to do a lot less work for a lot more money, and I doubt either any of us or the thousands of others doing likewise give a tin shit about the views of some judgemental random on the internet. If any person wants to sell a legal service at a price, time and location decided by us and to a person we're happy to sell it to, that is fuck all to do with anybody else. I don't approve of punching people in the head for a living, so I'm not a boxer.

Apparently Mumsnet can recognise that there are workers in agriculture, manufacturing, hospitality and so on who are not trafficked and vulnerable despite the number who are, but the legitimate, legal sex industry within which many people have worked safely and happily or their own volition for years doesn't exist (and obviously they're all broken or damaged in some way that no other workers are by virtue of their job alone; give me fucking strength).

I'll bow out now before the usual abolitionist shills arrive with the 'buying women's bodies' horseshit. I often wonder where they think our bodies are being kept after all these sales have taken place. And maybe have a think about why sex workers don't support the Nordic model.

Ah, here we go. We've had 'prostituted women', and a reference to a long debunked piece of crappy research whose sample was very carefully selected by a rabid anti-prostitution campaigner to be sure she got the result she wanted. And so it begins.

Thank you for your post. It is interesting to hear this perspective

I note that you were doing non-contact sex work - I think stripping is mainly non-contact? The OP on the thread I quoted was a Domme which I think also tends to involve less direct physical contact?

Do you think women who enjoy & choose to sell sex, like you and your friends, are more likely to be doing non-contact, or at least mainly non-contact work? Or not?

I don’t believe any secure, emotionally healthy woman sells sex and we shouldn’t as a society enable this form of self harm and dress it up as choice

• I see what you mean...she may well have trauma. Otoh it's possible she doesn't. People in general can do odd/disturbing things without being traumatised...

Do you think men who sell sex are the same? I'm pretty sure trauma would be similarly often a factor.

I'm sorry but I absolutely abhor what Bonnie Blue does. I can't that excuse that in any way. There is selling sex and there is what she does: encourage the degradation of women.

I.actually agree with OP's stance.

I judge the men because I doubt they know (or care) if the women they are paying for sex with are trafficked/coerced/vulnerable/desperate. Do you think they ask/demand proof of the sex worker’s positive mental health state prior to the sexual act; how would that even work 🤔

They like to think that the women are fucking them because they want to, or believe they’re such studs and incredible in bed etc 🙄 and don’t want to admit to themselves that the woman 99% of the time ISN’T there through choice and literally just there for the cash.

So, going back to the other post that you refer to in your OP, the basically “nice” man who used the sexual services of the “willing escort” is truly unlikely to have only ever slept with one prostitute. He deliberately chose a sex worker as he had a kink that he wished to partake in, which (presumably) his dates/gfs/wife/partner wouldn’t willingly do. These kinks are basically an addiction, and if he’s not getting that addiction fed in one place, he’ll get it from another.

And with the higher majority of sex workers NOT actively choosing it as a career, it’s likely that he HAS paid for sex with a vulnerable/trafficked/coerced woman, don’t you think?